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Nigel Cabourn

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by Fuuma, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. zissou

    zissou Senior member

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    That's precisely what several guys have said they plan to do. It's a perfectly reasonable discussion to have here. It's not like we're all new to NC and could never dream of affording anything from him.
     
  2. London

    London Senior member

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    Let's appreciate the design, quality or whatever floats your boat about NC. Critique the design, quality or whatever, but let's not devolve this thread into the too expensive thread. Every thread could be turned into a moan session about the costs, because what's expensive is all relative.
     
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  3. zissou

    zissou Senior member

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    Design, while more tangible, is also relative. I would argue that quality is even more abstract, though, and takes into account pricing.
     
  4. JRyder

    JRyder Senior member

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    I agree that bemoaning the price is a waist of a thread. I simply responded due to my general surprise at how inflationary the cost appears to be this winter season and the past summer season. No doubt the style and quality are unchanged if not better from past season. Is it possible he is using more selective manufacturing methods and materials that simply cost more?

    That being said, I am a little disappointed in the roden gray pieces. I was really excited about these articles in that I climb and ski myself and love any kind of heritage outdoor product. But I'm growing tired of the current camo craze, and feel like it has lost it novelty and certainly misses the point on a mountaineering inspired heritage collection. Hell even the original 10th mountain division garments weren't camouflaged.
     
  5. ManofKent

    ManofKent Senior member

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    In danger of going off-topic here, but HR launched a AW12 collection in august...
     
  6. London

    London Senior member

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    Agreed. Camo is played out. My favorite Cabourn piece for F/W is this ventile parka. Once it goes on sale, i'm on it.[​IMG]
     
  7. BLAUGRANA

    BLAUGRANA Senior member

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    I wouldn't say that people were "bemoaning" the price. I think the discussion was in part about value. Having worked in the industry for years I can say that the things I generally look at are style, quality and value. At some point value plays into it and when you're comparing Cabourn to another brand that is "similar" then it can and probably should be considered. Besides, the thread isn't getting hijacked.

    As for the AW12 Collection, I was thinking of changing the discussion earlier today and saying we should post the piece we're most looking forward to getting. I had a hard time narrowing it down though. It's not just because I like x amount of pieces either. Don't get me wrong, I do, but IMO it's in part because it's similar across the board. The colors, the styles, the details. I mean there are how many parkas and some are very close. I also think the Collection seems a bit too similar to what we've seen before. I mean the Cameramen look nearly identical to last season's. In a way I'm happy about that as I would like a Navy Cameraman, but on the flip side I was hoping for something that looked a bit different. Of course you've for the limited edition pieces, but theyr'e of course the highest in price. Anyway, Cameraman aside (and a Mallory as well), the pieces I like are:

    Frank Debenham Seaman Coat

    [​IMG]

    My concern with the Seaman coat though is that it'll be quite boxy. Also like the Edgar Evans Antarctic Smock Jacket

    [​IMG]

    My knock on the smock jacket though is that it's plaid (yes, I get the historical aspect). Love the details at the hood though. Worried the fit will be really oversized though.

    Looking at the Authentic Collection, I like the Short Puffa Jacket in any color/combination:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. evel

    evel Active Member

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    Im happy to be corrected, I had heard they had gone to the wall, and haven’t seen it stocked anywhere, have u any links to stockists? (edit: heard the AW12 items on the site may just be samples made up that never made full production)

    Pieces I want this winter are a cameraman (if not this season, looking to look at previous for bargains), the converse boots when they drop and Debenham seaman coat is nice too!
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  9. London

    London Senior member

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    I like the fact that NC keeps things consistent, but may add a twist by offering new styles.
     
  10. ManofKent

    ManofKent Senior member

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    I've not heard anything, but I can't see the AW12 collection anywhere other than their web site so you might be right. It's a shame, but their summer collection didn't do a lot for me.


    Back to NC - yes the Debenham seaman coat is nice. I don't need another duffle, but if i was after one I'd be very tempted.
     
  11. NeilChristopher

    NeilChristopher Active Member

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    Hello,


    Sorry if this is taking the thread back to prices, I don't normally talk about other companies costings and wholesale/retail prices, but we use a few of the same factories of a few mention labels in this thread, UK production does cost more, but not that much more, but more. We only make in London but I have travelled all over with Co-Lab work and production work for others.

    Retail prices have to be completive with other retailers, there is no RRP in most markets a high retail price is based on a high wholesale price (sorry if this is a bit basic) after production and fabric costs the next big 'lump' in the wholesale mark-up is agency fees/profit, we work with a shallow mark up and no agents, but the larger companies (Cabourn in this case) use a network of agents and distribution, have a large staff and show in four markets every season, thus there increasing wholesale price driving up the retail price. There are other factors here that I will not talk about as I've been a little to close to them and would not want to cross a line, in regards to respect and history. But I will say this Fabrics also go through this production/agent/distribution cycle before most labels even start cutting garments, very few brands buy direct from loomers, this simple idea of direct to loomer saved us a LOT of money, same goes for button, zips, washings and everything else you’d use to make the garment. As you grow this is harder to do.

    I’m guessing that a large percentage of us own Red Wings, some old some new, I’ve had my boots since 1990 had them from new, cost me $70, replaced the soles 5 times and the laces a few thousand, same boots are now $175, twenty two years of wear and still going, but other more costly boots don’t make it past their first winter, I use this as an example of quality not costing the earth.

    There has long been an idea that quality and price are locked together, this is on the whole a correct link, sadly we have also made the reverse idea that price and quality is also linked, this is sadly not true, we all know you pay for a name and the name has value but why, what is this idea built on?
    When the talk comes to cost it’s what you get out of it, is what you are paying for… how long does it last and how much do you wear it, how good does it make you feel, I have two very old jackets, one from the early days of Carhartt, the other early Woolrich, one cost me over $2000 the other I found in a bundle of ragging, love them both, wear them hard and enjoy them. My point is, if you feel the cost is right and you’ll get the enjoyment out of it, why not spend £2500 on a Parka!


    In regard to Nigel not being out there in the stores as much, with the growth of this ‘heritage’ market and need for some to increase their size to best be able to deal with that growth (increased costs which are added to W/Sale prices driving up the retail price), it’s sadly just part of the whole process, if the garments sell mainly in the sales, due to price, then the stores will not return for more of the same, it’s there profit that is lost. Now the influx of high street identifying with this and pouching the style (this is the business!!) The effect on the ‘expanded or die’ companies is evident with their loss of footing and crossover products needed to keep the core moving. Many will fall ,Some will fail, a few will die…..but that is the clothing industry, it’s not built on rock it’s all shifting sands……

    sorry for the length.....
     
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  12. AriGold

    AriGold Senior member

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    he's growing so he's costs are going up? as in marketing costs?
     
  13. London

    London Senior member

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    Really^???
     
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  14. NeilChristopher

    NeilChristopher Active Member

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    Hello
    Simply put, no, not just Marketing….
    STAFF
    There is a point when your growing has striped past the size it can be managed with the original people, you have to expand your ‘team’ this is not a simple thing to do, depends on the ‘vision’ of the growing business where they want to be in X amount of seasons, also the costs need to be meet by the income of sales, if you only had two people working with you to begin with two wages spread over the sales of say 3000 units is a manageable thing, then you are at peck of your skills (shall we say, need a better word) everyone is busy, pushing for something they believe in, working to their limits, you expand by a 1000 units, you’ll need another two employees to help pick up the dropped work, now 4000 units needs to pay for 4 wages, it a simple view, but in my experience a very small company s more cost effective them a small company(staff wise), the more staff needed to grow a business is in the early stages of growth is out of sync with the cash flow, W/sale price goes up to match needs. Other staff costs come in the way of agent fees, more agents to reach more markets cost more money with minimum 6 months before cash flow catches up. Another area is Distribution, bigger drain on profit with increased coverage…. Thus increased W/Sale prices
    RAW MATERALS
    Above I mention this and to expand, when your very small you can work closer with weaver and loomers to get the deal you need and the cloth you want as you grow this become more a problem as you’re not big enough to get the cloth volume needed to discount you and too big to run on single or double rolls, it’s easier to get a single/double roll ‘test’ fabric than to get 4 rolls of ‘special’ cloths, bigger orders cost more, then you have to factor in the time needed by the ‘designer’ better to get the agent come see you, that’ll cost you more, they need there cut. These cost grow and grow, it’s harder to cut a deal when they know you need them…increase fabric costs mean higher W/sale price
    Same goes for buttons, zips and other bits, at some point you hope the expand or die gamble will pay off, it does, when you have crossed the company size line where you can forced the prices down.
    PRODUCTION
    Again the very small and the big have the best deals here, very small can work around the factory’s production holes and Big company set the time line with the factory, medium size have to fight for space and pay for that space over the odds to a degree. Example: let’s say I have 50 jackets to be made, two styles, my factory is a waxed cotton coat producer, they are busy 51 weeks of the year, they will fit in my 50 jacket in there down time, but if I go there with 150 coats, it another story, too busy to fit me in there free space so I have to book time on their main production schedule, that’ll cost….more on the W/sale price


    MARKETING
    You asked about it, it goes up and UP, to grow you need it, the costs are high and you will lose position as soon as you stop using it…. The bigger you get the more it costs….very small and small companies….cost us nothing, they like to have the little guys in the room to make the bigger ones look good.


    What I’m trying to say is there is a point when is not profitable to grow, we have a choice to embrace the smallness of our companies or push through the unprofitable stage to the greener fields, if a company get caught in the space between they have cash flow problems, goods sold need to cover all costs.

    I will add this; the process above is not a reflection on any company but from experience.
     
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  15. London

    London Senior member

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    easy with the essays my dude
     
  16. NeilChristopher

    NeilChristopher Active Member

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  17. NickJohannessen

    NickJohannessen Senior member

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    Don't say sorry, Neil. I for one am enjoying your insight!
     
  18. Reginald Bartholomew

    Reginald Bartholomew Senior member

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    I agree, Neil's insight is valuable and I thank him for it.
     
  19. bensolujofin

    bensolujofin Well-Known Member

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    I agree, fascinating read..

    Where does Nigel fit into that then? Surely he's only a small or even very small company?

    An odd concept (for me being in a different industry) is that a buyer can't drive prices down as he buys more and more? You'd have thought it'd be the opposite.
     
  20. AriGold

    AriGold Senior member

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    yeah not sure, i would have thought he'd reach greater economies of scale which would offset his higher overheads.
     

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