Next bottle in the liquor cabinet? (for cocktails)

[b1os]



whats the pierre ferrand curaçao like compared to grand marnier?

Not a comparison with Grand Marnier, but regarding the general usability of Pierre Ferrand Dry Curaçao:

I don't like using the Ferrand Dry Curacao in cocktails with a gin base; I feel that the distinct brandy note clashes. I have a bottle, and I've had cocktails out with it, but have not yet been impressed' it reminds me very much of a rougher Grand Marnier Centenaire. No reason not to make the Pegu Club with Cointreau. Using it in a cocktail with brandy just seems redundant, as in a Sidecar. Might be good in a rye, bourbon, or Calvados cocktail. Where it really might shine is as the base for a cocktail, but I've not gotten that far with it.

~ H

^This is why I haven't bought it yet.

Disclaimer: Huntsman, if the views expressed in this post do not represent your current point of view, please do let us now.

 

[Patrologia]



Higher-proof bourbons (especially those with high-rye mashbills) perform well in cocktails-- Old Grand Dad BIB is a workhorse and cheap. With bourbon, proof is even more critical. I prefer it in some contexts where I'm accentuating a secondary ingredient and the spiciness of straight rye would be distracting.

With that said, 999 out of 1000 times, when I'm mixing whiskey, I'm reaching for Rittenhouse Rye. If you're only buying one whiskey for mixing, buy rye and buy bonded.

Incidentally, rye juleps are terrific.

Rittenhouse is the go to Rye in the house.

As for Bourbons, I've assumed that since I like Rye I'd probably prefer the higher rye bourbons, but wondered if they would be different enough from Rye to bother with. If I'm going to get a bourbon, shouldn't it be substantially different from rye? or will high rye bourbons still be distinctive?

 

[turkoftheplains]

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1os regarding the general usability of Pierre Ferrand Dry Curaçao:
^This is why I haven't bought it yet.
This is true of all (good, traditionally-made) curaçaos– Ferrand and Grand Marnier alike. As brandy-based liqueurs, they have a distinct "brown spirit" character to them. This has the advantage of making them more distinctive and the drawback of making them less versatile. In particular, the brownness of curaçao tends to clash with London Dry gins. Triple sec, with its neutral-spirits base, mixes well with all base spirits. It is both more versatile and less inherently interesting (though I'd argue that Seville orange-based triple secs like Cointreau and Combier are bringing something other than orange flavor to the table.) It's worth remembering that curaçao is the older orange liqueur, and its heyday came in a time before modern column distillation techniques (even if it's nearly-always made with them now.) It is near-ubiquitous in the very oldest cocktail books. Jerry Thomas seemed to put it, along with Absinthe and maraschino, in pretty much everything. Curaçao plays best with spirits that are the most like the ones from back then-- woodier, grainier, and less clean-tasting. If you want to mix it with gin, use it with the gins that fit that profile: Holland gin and Old Tom. Similarly, it tends to mix better with funky estery old-school Jamaican-style rums (e.g., Smith and Cross, Wray & Nephew, Pusser's) than with the more recently-developed light Cuban-style ones. Improved quality control aside, whiskey and brandy are more or less the same as they were back then and also workwell with curaçao. If you have to buy one, the choice is easy: buy the triple sec. Almost any drink that calls for curaçao can be made with triple sec with some adjustments, but the reverse is not always true.

 

[turkoftheplains]

Quote:
It depends on the Bourbon. You're definitely right in certain cases– Bulleitt in particular is sufficiently rye-heavy as to be nearly-indistinguishable from straight rye whiskey in a cocktail. For others like OGD, there's enough difference for the distinction to matter in some very specifiic applications, but probably not for your purposes. With that said, if you find your supply of bonded rye interrupted, bonded high-rye bourbon is a completely acceptable substitute. As far as cocktails are concerned, if you have bonded rye, you never absolutely need Bourbon. Sipping is of course a completely different story.

 

[Patrologia]

So I ended up buying Campari. Cointreau was far more expensive at the store I went to, and neither of the less expensive but acceptable Triple Secs I've seen recommended were on the shelf.

I used the Campari in both a Negroni and in a Boulevardier (with Rittenhouse). Initial reaction is that I preferred the Boulevardier.

The Negroni might just take some getting used to, but it seemed to strongly highlight a couple of flavors to the point of overwhelming everything else. From what I've read, the secret to a Negroni is balance, and mine tasted all out of balance. I wonder if this is because the Campari didn't play well with the particular combination I had: Bombay (not Sapphire) Gin and Martini & Rossi Vermouth. Or, perhaps, it is a taste that will just require more acquisition. Thoughts?

 

[Ambulance Chaser]

Campari is very much of an acquired taste. Perhaps the sharp bitter orange of the Campari is clashing with the sharp juniper of the Bombay gin? All three ingredients in a Negroni can be changed, resulting in a countless number of variations. You just have to experiment around a little to find the combination you like. I prefer Gran Classico to Campari, as the former has a rounder flavor profile. I've found that Gran Classico mixes very well with a rye-based gin, such as St. George.

 

[indesertum]

I think in cocktails the one thing people always overlook is temperature and dilution. The water really mellows disjointed ingredients and brings them together. The low temperature tempers the heat.

I really prefer stirring to last for at least 30 seconds optimally 45 seconds with medium size ice cubes. Obviously in a commercial setting this will not happen but at home it's not that much more work. One of the big cocktail guys did some work with a thermal couple and it looked like temperature stabilized around 45 seconds of stirring with minimal decrease in temperature after that.

I should try shaking a negroni to see what it tastes like

 

[Huntsman]

So I ended up buying Campari. Cointreau was far more expensive at the store I went to, and neither of the less expensive but acceptable Triple Secs I've seen recommended were on the shelf.

I used the Campari in both a Negroni and in a Boulevardier (with Rittenhouse). Initial reaction is that I preferred the Boulevardier.

The Negroni might just take some getting used to, but it seemed to strongly highlight a couple of flavors to the point of overwhelming everything else. From what I've read, the secret to a Negroni is balance, and mine tasted all out of balance. I wonder if this is because the Campari didn't play well with the particular combination I had: Bombay (not Sapphire) Gin and Martini & Rossi Vermouth. Or, perhaps, it is a taste that will just require more acquisition. Thoughts?

Hmmm....I love Campari far more than most anything, but it is not versatile at all. And yes, it is far less expensive than Cointreau. It IS hard to not highlight the cough-syrup quality of Campari. Of all the gins I've made Negroni's with, Bombay was my least favorite by far. M&R is a good choice of vermouth for the Negroni (and I am a vermouth freak).

I think in cocktails the one thing people always overlook is temperature and dilution. The water really mellows disjointed ingredients and brings them together. The low temperature tempers the heat.

I really prefer stirring to last for at least 30 seconds optimally 45 seconds with medium size ice cubes. Obviously in a commercial setting this will not happen but at home it's not that much more work. One of the big cocktail guys did some work with a thermal couple and it looked like temperature stabilized around 45 seconds of stirring with minimal decrease in temperature after that.

I should try shaking a negroni to see what it tastes like

Man, I like the way you think. I agree with both points so very much. In some commercial settings it works, but not many.

I have shaken a Negroni and I do not like it.

~ H

 

[Patrologia]



Hmmm....I love Campari far more than most anything, but it is not versatile at all. And yes, it is far less expensive than Cointreau.

Besides the cost, I actually decided I liked the idea of having a more limited range of exploration. I liked what I read about both the Negroni and the Boulevardier and decided that since my only legit Triple Sec option was the very top shelf, I'd explore the more limited range of Campari for now. You're right though, it is quite limited -- Campari themselves just seem to list the Negroni and a bunch of +juice drinks.

It IS hard to not highlight the cough-syrup quality of Campari. Of all the gins I've made Negroni's with, Bombay was my least favorite by far. M&R is a good choice of vermouth for the Negroni (and I am a vermouth freak).

~ H

What gin would you suggest for a Negroni without breaking the bank? I saw that last night you were using a Sloe Gin, but got the impression that was you experimenting.

 

[NickCarraway]

I am not sure how it will go over in a room full of Campari and Vermouth fans, but my vote for most versatile "one more bottle" goes to St. Germain.

 

[cc3peat]



I am not sure how it will go over in a room full of Campari and Vermouth fans, but my vote for most versatile "one more bottle" goes to St. Germain.

I'm actually a big fan of St. Germain. My only issue with recommending it in this case is that it is a fairly.. nuanced flavor. For example it mixes well with gin but does not alter the flavor SIGNIFICANTLY. Definitely noticeable, but the OP may be better off going for something a little bolder, this early in his explorations. Though of course, the subtle flavor may be a good entry point, so, to each his own.

 

[Bhowie]

Put down the st germain

 

[Huntsman]

Quote:
My well gin for the Negroni is simply Beefeater, which can be had in a 1.75 for quite a reasonable sum (unlike my 1.75s of Hendrick's and Sapphire). Yes, the Plymouth Sloe Gin Negroni was an experiment, but and extremely successful one, I think. You should also try the Lucien Gaudin with your Campari (though you will need a triple sec for that!), and eventually, a Cure for Pain.

Yep. Totally. Still feel exactly the same. How I said it might shine as a base? A friend recently made me a Grand Marnier cocktail called the Grand Fashioned, which starts with 2oz of Grand Marnier (seriously), and that rocked!

http://www.foodandwine.com/recipes/grand-fashioned-cocktails-2005

Put down the st germain

Bhowie, you are such a cocktail curmudgeon. St. Germain did become the darling of 'mixologists' for quite some time, but I refuse to ascribe to the notion that popularity decreases the intrinsic quality of anything. I think St. Germain is a very good modifier and I am glad to have it in my bar, and have made a number of drinks with it, and like it quite a lot. I would NOT recommend it to the OP, who should buy some Cointreau to learn the classics and then add the St. Germain to his repertoire if at some time he wishes to. But not now -- a Triple Sec is more versatile, and in its use, teaches you more.

~ H

 

[Bhowie]

I absolutely am a cocktail curmudgeon. I liked it better when you called me post cocktail.

St Germain as the next bottle to buy is just really terrible advice. There are so many other modifiers you should buy before St Germain.

I won't rehash my St Germain hate.

 

[indesertum]

what would be the next modifier you buy? i think mine would be cointreau and then lillet blanc