Newbie Shoe Question

[Baltic]

Xpost from Menswear Advice

Hi Everyone,

About a year ago, I made a jump from Cole Haans and bought a few pairs of To Boot loafers and oxfords. Overall, I'm happy with the quality (although one the pairs of oxfords looks a little rough) and was looking for recommendations for other brands in the same (or slightly better) vein.

Also, in searching forum posts, I've noticed that people have mixed feelings about To Boot. As mentioned, my experience has been decent (not amazing though), so curious to learn more about the criteria used in evaluating nicer shoes.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Kushcoma9000]

Xpost from Menswear Advice

Hi Everyone,

About a year ago, I made a jump from Cole Haans and bought a few pairs of To Boot loafers and oxfords. Overall, I'm happy with the quality (although one the pairs of oxfords looks a little rough) and was looking for recommendations for other brands in the same (or slightly better) vein.

Also, in searching forum posts, I've noticed that people have mixed feelings about To Boot. As mentioned, my experience has been decent (not amazing though), so curious to learn more about the criteria used in evaluating nicer shoes.

Thanks a lot!

If you're curious about which brands to get, check out this website https://www.theworldofshoes.com/stories/brands/
It basically lists all the dress shoe brands in the world and the best part is that you can filter them by price ($ vs $$ [like the "To Boot" brand] vs $$$), country, and the type of sole construction (blake < blake rapid < goodyear welted and Norwegian < hand welted). Once you've narrowed down the brands by the filters, you just have to google that brand's name and go to their website and check out their shoes and then repeat for the other brands (yes it can be time consuming but it's a powerful tool to find what you want).

 

[Kushcoma9000]

Criteria used to evaluate nicer READY TO WEAR shoes:

1) What type of sole construction does it have? If you go to http://www.kielman.pl/en/buty/rodzaje-szycia/ they list a bunch of different types of sole construction but generally
Hand welted > Goodyear welted and Norwegian > Blake Rapid stitch > Blake stitch > Cemented construction
Hand welted is usually found on bespoke shoes, not ready to wear shoes. All of the above sole constructions allow for you to replace your worn down soles except for the cemented construction method because there's no stitching involved in that (it's just glue; I think most Cole Haan shoes have a cemented construction)

2) What type of sole is it? Leather > Rubber

3) What type of leather is on the shoe? If you go to http://www.kielman.pl/en/buty/skory/ they list a bunch of different types of leather
Exotic leather is going to cost the most. Usually calf skin is fine and so is cordovan shell leather

4) Formality wise: Oxfords are the most formal type of shoe and darker colors are more formal on any shoe (black [patent > non-patent] > dark brown > light brown)

5) What type of toe? Plain toes and Cap toes are formal

Now if you go into bespoke territory, additional features of niceness would be a
1) Seamless back heel (no stitch on the back heel of the shoe): This can only be done by a bespoke shoemaker's hands because no machine can do this thus making this feature exclusively bespoke

Link: http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2014/08/the-seamless-wholecut-by-maftei.html

1) High "stitches per inch" (spi) count on the hand welted sole

From left to right: 18 spi, 16 spi, 14 spi
Link: http://shoegazing.se/english/2016/11/07/reportage-main-dor-eiji-murata/

3) Beveled or fiddle waist

Fiddle waist
Link: http://shoegazing.se/english/2016/11/07/reportage-main-dor-eiji-murata/

 

[cypi2]

Here are arguably the best threads about shoes on this forum.
Reading them has largely helped me make much better informed decisions about which shoes to buy:

https://www.styleforum.net/threads/shoemaking-techniques-and-traditions-these-foolish-things.412909/

https://www.styleforum.net/threads/shoe-construction-behind-the-veil.191166/

 

[CloudLi]

If you're curious about which brands to get, check out this website https://www.theworldofshoes.com/stories/brands/
It basically lists all the dress shoe brands in the world and the best part is that you can filter them by price ($ vs $$ [like the "To Boot" brand] vs $$$), country, and the type of sole construction (blake < blake rapid < goodyear welted and Norwegian < hand welted). Once you've narrowed down the brands by the filters, you just have to google that brand's name and go to their website and check out their shoes and then repeat for the other brands (yes it can be time consuming but it's a powerful tool to find what you want).

That’s a good site. But construction part is wrong. Blake Rapid always > Goodyear and Blake > Goodyear in a dry environment. Blake is easier and stands more resole than Goodyear welted

 

[CloudLi]

Criteria used to evaluate nicer READY TO WEAR shoes:

1) What type of sole construction does it have? If you go to http://www.kielman.pl/en/buty/rodzaje-szycia/ they list a bunch of different types of sole construction but generally
Hand welted > Goodyear welted and Norwegian > Blake Rapid stitch > Blake stitch > Cemented construction
Hand welted is usually found on bespoke shoes, not ready to wear shoes. All of the above sole constructions allow for you to replace your worn down soles except for the cemented construction method because there's no stitching involved in that (it's just glue; I think most Cole Haan shoes have a cemented construction)

2) What type of sole is it? Leather > Rubber

3) What type of leather is on the shoe? If you go to http://www.kielman.pl/en/buty/skory/ they list a bunch of different types of leather
Exotic leather is going to cost the most. Usually calf skin is fine and so is cordovan shell leather

4) Formality wise: Oxfords are the most formal type of shoe and darker colors are more formal on any shoe (black [patent > non-patent] > dark brown > light brown)

5) What type of toe? Plain toes and Cap toes are formal

Now if you go into bespoke territory, additional features of niceness would be a
1) Seamless back heel (no stitch on the back heel of the shoe): This can only be done by a bespoke shoemaker's hands because no machine can do this thus making this feature exclusively bespoke

Link: http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2014/08/the-seamless-wholecut-by-maftei.html

1) High "stitches per inch" (spi) count on the hand welted sole

From left to right: 18 spi, 16 spi, 14 spi
Link: http://shoegazing.se/english/2016/11/07/reportage-main-dor-eiji-murata/

3) Beveled or fiddle waist

Fiddle waist
Link: http://shoegazing.se/english/2016/11/07/reportage-main-dor-eiji-murata/

No to be rude, but I see you just joined the forum and lots of your postings/knowledge are simply wrong and I don’t bother to correct you as long as you stay in your own threads. None of the feature you listed exclusively suggests bespoke shoes. Sorry to point out, you don’t even know what is hand welted vs Goodyear welted when you join in the forum. There are so many hand welted/hand made shoes that are not bespoke. You can give your suggestions but don’t drop incorrect knowledge to misguide others

 

[Kushcoma9000]

That’s a good site. But construction part is wrong. Blake Rapid always > Goodyear and Blake > Goodyear in a dry environment. Blake is easier and stands more resole than Goodyear welted

I guess I can see that since a goodyear welt's advantage is that it's water proof (and more sturdy). Never thought about the hierarchy in a dry environment. Though, I never specified what environment. What I wanted to imply was in any environment, wet or dry, Goodyear would be > Blake rapid or Blake. Wouldn't that be correct?

 

[Kushcoma9000]

No to be rude, but I see you just joined the forum and lots of your postings/knowledge are simply wrong and I don’t bother to correct you as long as you stay in your own threads. None of the feature you listed exclusively suggests bespoke shoes. Sorry to point out, you don’t even know what is hand welted vs Goodyear welted when you join in the forum. There are so many hand welted/hand made shoes that are not bespoke. You can give your suggestions but don’t drop incorrect knowledge to misguide others

I know for a fact that seamless wholecut oxfords can only be made by bespoke means but you're saying there are other seamless shoes that can be made by non-bespoke methods aka machines? And there are machines out there that can do 18 spi? True, I didn't know the difference between hand welted and goodyear welted soles but now I do. I'm always trying to learn from my mistakes, and I'll try not to make those particular mistakes when informing others next time. Didn't realize there were "many" hand welted shoes out there compared to other types of stitching so sorry about that. Any other errors I made?

 

[CloudLi]

I guess I can see that since a goodyear welt's advantage is that it's water proof (and more sturdy). Never thought about the hierarchy in a dry environment. Though, I never specified what environment. What I wanted to imply was in any environment, wet or dry, Goodyear would be > Blake rapid or Blake. Wouldn't that be correct?

No, that’s not correct. And you cannot rank them without specify the use and the environment. Search “gemming”, understand that term then you will understand Blake Rapid is always better than Goodyear as it provides waterproof. And if you are buying a black oxford exclusively for black tie, there are advantages of Blake constructed shoes that would make it better than a hand welted shoes.

 

[Kushcoma9000]

No, that’s not correct. And you cannot rank them without specify the use and the environment. Search “gemming”, understand that term then you will understand Blake Rapid is always better than Goodyear as it provides waterproof. And if you are buying a black oxford exclusively for black tie, there are advantages of Blake constructed shoes that would make it better than a hand welted shoes.

Interesting, seems like there's more to learn than I thought. That's exciting. I'll look into it. Thanks!

 

[CloudLi]

I know for a fact that seamless wholecut oxfords can only be made by bespoke means but you're saying there are other seamless shoes that can be made by non-bespoke methods aka machines? And there are machines out there that can do 18 spi? True, I didn't know the difference between hand welted and goodyear welted soles but now I do. I'm always trying to learn from my mistakes, and I'll try not to make those particular mistakes when informing others next time. Didn't realize there were "many" hand welted shoes out there compared to other types of stitching so sorry about that. Any other errors I made?

Bespoke involves custom made last and trial shoes etc, and hand made shoes are simply handmade shoes. Yes, seamless whole cut can only made by hand but that is not bespoke.
You can get a hand welted seamless wholecut for $800, but a bespoke pair will run you $3000

 

[Kushcoma9000]

Bespoke involves custom made last and trial shoes etc, and hand made shoes is simply handmade shoes. Yes, seamless whole cut can only made by hand but that is not bespoke.

Ah I see what you're saying. A shoemaker can make both a "bespoke" and a "ready to wear" seamless wholecut oxford by hand. So if I understand, all bespoke shoes are hand made but not all hand made shoes are bespoke. Right?

Also, would you mind sending me a link to where I can buy the ready to wear hand welted seamless wholecut oxford you're referring to for $800?

 

[breakaway01]

Blake Rapid always > Goodyear and Blake > Goodyear in a dry environment. Blake is easier and stands more resole than Goodyear welted

 

[Kushcoma9000]

You know, I started reading about this online again some more and everywhere I go, it keeps saying the opposite of what CloudLi said (Goodyear is easier to resole and lasts longer than Blake). Maybe CloudLi means in a dry environment only.

 

[breakaway01]

My advice is not to take too seriously everything you read on the internet about things like shoe construction. A lot of information is either plain wrong or else focuses on details that don't really matter in real life to most people. I am not at all convinced that Blake soled shoes can be resoled more times than a GYW shoe, and even if that's the case, is that a meaningful number? I would wager that 95% of welted shoes are never resoled. And how many people who pontificate about these things actually own (or have even inspected) a pair of Blake, B/R, and GYW shoes?

Have you gone and handled some of these shoes in person? Have you actually tried on a pair of wholecuts to see if you like how they look on your feet? I would highly recommend this rather than looking at too many pictures on the internet.