new to the world of premium denim - help/advice sought

[cpac]

Hello all - this is my first post in the streetwear & denim forum having posted in men's fashion and over at that other forum for quite some time. I'm in the market for a new pair of jeans, my Levis 517's having stretched out so they fall off and look sloppy (they're fine for an hour or so after getting back from the wash, but loosen up too quickly). I've done a bit of reading here, and while I don't think I'll ever be able to bring myself to play $200 or more for jeans, I gather that Levis, at least in the US, are of generally substandard quality. APC seems to be the next step up in price/quality without having to pay for branding and other things I could care less about. So my questions are: (1) I gather that APC stretch out at the waist considerably, and so my plan is to visit the soho store and buy the smallest waist size I can still manage to close. (Likely a 32, but I'll try up and down a size as well). Does this sound like a good plan? (2) Are there other brands/stores I should be visiting where I can find comparable quality without having to pay too much for branding? (Are there Levi's lines that *are* worth looking at? Is Ernest Sewn hyped up?) (3) I've looked at all the sponsor links - is paying retail for premium denim only "for suckers?" Thanks in advance for any advice. ----------------- -cpac

 

[LA Guy]

1) There is, imo, no substitute for actually trying on jeans, so I think that going to the APC store is a good idea, if you have access to it.

2) Retail on denim is generally pretty standard from store to store (though there are exceptions. Louis marks up SPURR jeans to $375. They are priced at $325 everywhere else, and Atelier tends to mark things up over most stores' retail as well, as does Atrium.) What you want to be sure about is getting a brand that offers a lot. For my money, you cannot beat 5EP, but those are $250, which you may not be willing to pay at this stage. However, the simplicity of design and complexity of the denim makes them the most versatile jean I own. Everything is top notch about them. Oak in Brooklyn carries them. If you really want to immerse yourself in denim, Blue and Green in Soho is the place you must go. However, do not expect anything cheap. Prices start at ~150. The service and knowledge alone makes the trip worth it though.

Rag&Bone, which retails typically $200-$250, makes very versatile, very user friendly jeans. I would recommend them second to 5EP, and especially if you are looking for a versatile, urbane, jean.

3) Paying retail is not for suckers. For a first time buyer, I generally recommend going into a store, if you have access to one.

 

[cpac]

Thanks for the words of advice, I'll definitely be visiting stores in person, but I'd rather know as much as possible in advance.

Anybody else care to comment on my original questions?

Also, some follow-ups:

The brands you recommended all seem to be in the over-$200 range, which I'm just not sure I can justify, which perhaps is just due to a lack of knowledge.

Why is it important to get "selvege" denim? Japanese denim? I understand why hand sewing is more desireable and results in a better product when talking about suits, but why is this important in jeans? I guess, in short, my question is: "why do they cost so much?/What am I getting for my money?"

Also, you didn't mention APC in your response - am I right in understanding them to be a notch (or two? or three?) above most levis? Are there other brands worth checking out in the sub-$200 price range?

(I'm in NYC, so finding a store shouldn't be a problem).

Thanks

---------------
-cpac

 

[Tarmac]

I think people should get away from the APC-should-be-your-first-raw-jean mentality.

I think the first raw one should be Levi's 501 LVC 47 cut. they cost $174

 

[whodini]

It really depends on what you're expecting from your jean since the sub-$200 can buy you quite a bit.

Figure out what kind of fit you want: skinny, straight, relaxed, bootcut, traditional higher rise (or repro), etc. Best way to figure that out is to go into a store and see what works best on you.

Once you've established that, then we can talk about brands. Are you looking to pay for a specfic fit, are you more about quality/details/workmanship, or both?

Selvage is a type of material that was once the standard in jeans-making. To make a sort of comparison, you can buy a leather jacket but simply because it is leather does not tell you anything about the quality or texture of the jacket. Same rule applies for selvage.

APC is recommended as a "starting" jean as the New Standard is versatile, fits wells, and is one of the cheaper alternatives. Nudie is another brand you might want to look into sub-$200. They are more about fit than quality but do have a cut for everyone.

 

[whodini]

Originally Posted by Tarmac

I think people should get away from the APC-should-be-your-first-raw-jean mentality.

I think the first raw one should be Levi's 501 LVC 47 cut. they cost $174
That's fine if you like high-jeans. Some people don't which is why APC works well.

 

[apocalypse later]

You don't need selvage denim. Many people here and on SuFu go batshit over selvage, but there's really no reason to if you're first starting out in raw denim.

You can read about how selvage is woven, why it won't unravel, why it's stronger, and blah blah blah. To save you some time--it's stronger, it has a better feel, and it has that little selvage line that people who cuff seem to need. The reason you see so much selvage is because that's mostly what Japanese brands make, and what Japanese brands make is what SFers buy.

To answer a few of your questions:

(1) I gather that APC stretch out at the waist considerably, and so my plan is to visit the soho store and buy the smallest waist size I can still manage to close. (Likely a 32, but I'll try up and down a size as well). Does this sound like a good plan?

What waist size are you and what fit do you want? My guess is that you're looking at New Standards--and if you're a tall skinny guy that wants a slim/straight fit, you should be. If you're not looking at NS and you're not a skinny guy, I can't help you. But generally, the rule of thumb with APC denim is that you size down 3 for a slim fit and 2 for a straight/regular fit. They'll stretch out to fit nicely.

(2) Are there other brands/stores I should be visiting where I can find comparable quality without having to pay too much for branding? (Are there Levi's lines that *are* worth looking at? Is Ernest Sewn hyped up?)

Just find a store with a nice selection of denim and good sales people. Levi's aren't really worth looking at for a newb (unless you just want some STFs...) and Ernest Sewn has a lot more prewashes than raw, I believe. Remember, with raw denim, you're not really paying for branding--you're paying for fit, quality, and the fade. Hell, I bet 99.9% of people out there have never seen an Imperial pocket design.

Personally, I would be looking at Nudies in your situation. People here seem to have a lot of hate for Nudie, and I have no idea why. Nudie has some great cuts (Average Joe, Regular Ralph, Slim Jim) and some good quality denm. I think people just hate on Nudie because Japanese brands have become more elusive and exclusive. But I find that they just don't fit as well as Nudie. I think you should check out an Average Joe or a Regular Ralf--they're two very versatile cuts and fairly cheap (Average Joe Heavy Dry is only like $165 at Context, I think).

(3) I've looked at all the sponsor links - is paying retail for premium denim only "for suckers?"

If by "premium" you mean 7FAM, Diesel, Rock&Republic, Energie, etc, then yes, you are a sucker if you pay retail. If by "premium" you mean Samurai, 5EP, Pure Blue Japan, and Imperial, then you'd be a sucker NOT to pay retail for these jeans. Sales are always nice , but a selvage pair of denim can last for a hell of a long time and always look good.

 

[LA Guy]

Here are a few things to look for, in general.

1) Good hardware. Donut buttons on the fly and a well shanked top button are the most obvious. A lot of brands, including this forum's favorite starting brand, do not use these. A donut button look like a donut, looking from the top. The button is typically flat with a hole in the middle where the bottom of the buttom comes up to attach. This type of button is extremely sturdy. 2 brands that use this are 5EP and Kicking Mule Workshop. I believe that PRPS does as well. 5EP's burr rivets are also exceptional quality. Generally considerably sturdier than the typical "nipple" rivets.

2) Good denim. Good jeans can be of smooth or slubby, tightly woven or loosely woven denim. Regardless, the denim should have a complex, interesting dye and a good hand.

3) Good construction. The top block should be more or less compleely chainstitched for strength. Look at all the non-cosmetic stitching. Is it tight and well finished, with few if any hanging threads?
(I personally like the clean finishing of flat-felled inseams, but this is just a personal preference. Most of the high quality "repro" jeans do not have this for historical reasons.)

4) Attention to detail. SPURR jeans have half lined back pockets and both these and the front pockets bags are made of a fine cotton herringbone. Very nice. The hardware on SPURR and 5EP jeans are some of the finest I've seen, on any jeans, from any country. If you flip a pair of SPURR or Micking Mules jeans inside out, you will see that the jeans are as well finished inside as out, and that is very well. Are the stitching colors judiciously chosen?

5) Well considered design - harder to summarize points in a few sentences, but I always look at the design of the fly. Are the buttons spaced well, or will your junk fall out after some wear?

 

[Get Smart]

Originally Posted by Tarmac

I think people should get away from the APC-should-be-your-first-raw-jean mentality.

I think the first raw one should be Levi's 501 LVC 47 cut. they cost $174


LVC '47 is good, except it's STF which makes sizing more of a hassle for some who isn't familiar with raw denim. And unless you know of a consistent seller, LVC 1947 raw 501xx isnt the easiest denim to find, whereas APC is fairly common now with a widespread internet presence.

 

[v84]

cpac - go to superdenim http://supertalk.superfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15

it has a great concentration of denim enthusiasts

If you can afford it go for japanese brands at blue in green, the jeans are great for many reasons ( I only own APC and five japanese brands for comparison, I cant comment on 5ep, or crate etc etc ) selvedge used to be a sign of quality however now its been exploited and you can find pretty naff selvedge fabric on the highstreet. So its good not to be selvedgecentric!

If you want to go a little cheaper, maybe try nudie or apc, both fairly decent brands to start with, john bull and skull are the cheaper brands at BIG, however still a smidgin over your limit.

guess im echoing whodinis thoughts.

 

[LA Guy]

I'd like to first say that I think that the stuff Gordon sells is terrific. However, I am not sure that I would make a blanket recommendation to get something from Blue in Green.

For one, the jeans there are for real denim enthusiasts. The pricepoints are quite high, and cpac can always go there after trying out some more accessible brands. Second, the Japanese brands are mainly about the denim. The cuts are often not particularly accessible, and as Berlin Report, who owns a store in that city, has remarked, the cut of a repro is pretty mystifying to most people. Similarly, the construction techniques used are very interesting, but not necessarily better (in the sense of being more durable) than modern brands, and in several cases, is very much the opposite. A brand like Rag&Bone may be much better for a beginner.

Having said that, I think that if you are serious about learning about jeans, you will not get a better education than at Blue in Green, and Gordon is a very fairminded person.

 

[keykoo]

Personally, I would be looking at Nudies in your situation. People here seem to have a lot of hate for Nudie, and I have no idea why.

I love the cuts of some nudies and the denim is on par with any sub 200 dollar jean I've seen. That orange stitching is just ugly as hell though especially on the back pockets.

 

[apocalypse later]

Originally Posted by keykoo

I love the cuts of some nudies and the denim is on par with any sub 200 dollar jean I've seen. That orange stitching is just ugly as hell though especially on the back pockets.

I think I'm one of the few who like the orange stitching. I think the pocket designs could be a little less loud though.

But yeah, I tried on the Average Joe Dry Heavy, and man, the fit and feel is better than the RRDS.

 

[chronoaug]

I've already decided that i'm not going to give any more jean advice unless people actually help me help them. Do we have any idea what the OP is actually looking for besides "premium denim"? I could reccomend April 77 joeys or R&B RB6 or one of the millions of jeans in between but i don't know where to stop. Listing every jean under the sun is a bit too much work. All i have to go by is that he thinks his 517s are too sloppy.

 

[cpac]

Thank you all, again, for your advice.

I don't pretend to know a lot of about denim, and so I appreciate what you all are willing to tell me. I don't anticipate being able to become a denim enthusiast on par with many of you here either simply because I don't have enough opportunity to wear denim.

That said, in my more formal clothing I appreciate many things: (1) that higher quality lasts longer, looks better, and in general makes sense as an investment; (2) that fit, above anything else, makes clothing look good, and (3) that in anything, whether suits or socks, sometimes you get what you pay for, other times you pay for a name.

So I guess I'm looking for the best "bang for my buck" assuming I'm ready to accept that Levi's are no longer acceptable from a quality standpoint. Again fit is the most important to me, but after that I think the idea of starting with raw denim and having them age/adjust to me is very appealing (particularly if I can count on these lasting a good number of years).

Chronoaug and others: If it "helps," I'm 6'6", about 218 lbs or so, and fit. I'm 36" around my natural waist (smallest point) and about 37" a inch or two below my navel, where I'd want the jeans to sit. The 36"x34" 517s I have fall off my hips without too much encouragement. I'm looking for something in a fairly trim fit, but don't need a taper as my size 13s look big enough on their own, and so am open to a boot cut or straight leg. I'd prefer avoiding a very high rise as I think these unflattering and possibly an extra cause of my attempting wear the 517s lower (which in turn stretched them, which in turn caused them not to fit, etc. I want a darker jean to wear out and on weekends, though I'm not particular about any given "wash" or look.

If I didn't know better, I'd probably either get the 517s in the next size down, or buy some of the lower-rise 527s and see how that went. But I know enough from my clothing purchases in other areas that there's a lot more going on than meets the eye of an uniformed consumer, which is why I'm asking my questions here. I'm hoping to reach a sort of minimum level of jean competence; akin to knowing that for suits, fully canvassed are better than fused, that armani and most other designer labels are seldom worth the price, and having a few extra names of high-quality-for-the-cost makers. To put it in watch terms, I'm looking for the basic mechanicals that offer a lot for the money: Nomos, some of the other German brands, basic IWCs, etc.

So with that in mind, and given I'm unlikely to make this the start of a denim obsession, where should I go, and what should I look for?

Put another way: You're introducing your friend to the basics of non-gap/levis/jcrew/br denim and want to give them a solid basic model to start with. Where do you send them?


Thank you again for all your help....

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-cpac