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new ties -- passagio

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by T4phage, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    So much of this could be avoided if 1) Gianni answered questions forthrightly and 2) he just said "these are some fabrics I found in old stockrooms. I think they may be vintage, but in any case, they look nice." Because some of those fabrics above do look nice.

    I've been on the market to buy a Navajo weaving, and it's crazy how much knowledge one has to have in order to identify and date when something was made. Even when it's done, it's not pegged to a decade, it's to some broad period. Gianni's claim that "things are obvious," and that he "can feel the vintage-ness" because of his "passion" is totally absurd.

    Anyway, I emailed the printer I know. If I hear back, I'll you guys know what he says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
    4 people like this.
  2. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    Careful lest you be labelled a dead horse beater!

    In all seriousness, this continues to swirl simply because of the lack of precise answers that anyone with a modicum of critical evaluation expects. If many of us are characterized as being harsh and continuing to push it is for this reason. Many were customers and purchased more than a solitary tie that we are thrilled to have acquired and will wear proudly secure in the knowledge that we have something created for us. Sorry, but I am more mercenary than that.

    I am more interested in what this forum and its members do when inconsistencies present. It seems I may be in the minority and should just appreciate a pretty thing for what it is.

    A symptom of me getting old and crotchety might explain this.
     
  3. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Come on man! First you complain about people dicking around in the AV thread of Gianni and now you start doing the same here and in the Cappelli thread?

    If you don't feel like contributing anything useful, then at least make some good jokes, so we can have a laugh, instead of these lame comments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  4. othertravel

    othertravel Senior member

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    Ok ok, you may have a point. I do like the samples however as I haven't actually seen a comprehensive set of the silks he offers.
     
  5. othertravel

    othertravel Senior member

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    I will relent on this point as well (let's resurrect the horse!). I think your line of questioning is valid, especially if you were/are a current customer.

    I think I was getting annoyed at the less than productive comments from other posters, which prevented me from sorting between members who offer thoughtful insights/questions ( @dieworkwear @gsugsu @C&A ) and those that didn't.

    On a more productive note, how old would you guys consider vintage? 20+ years?

    And C&A, thanks for your tie suggestions. Appreciated!
     
  6. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    FWIW, @unbelragazzo is the only person I know who can date old things because of his passion.
     
    2 people like this.
  7. T4phage

    T4phage Senior member

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    depends what u mean
    by 'recent'...

    .
    make sure
    he differentiates
    between silk for
    kimonos
    and silk for
    ties
    and differences
    between english/
    italian/
    japanese

    i have spoken
    to a large
    english concern
    who specialises
    in silk printing
    for ties
    and white backs
    indicate inkjet
    except for a few
    cases where
    the background
    is white
    an example of
    which i poasted
    earlier
     
    4 people like this.
  8. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    Fair enough.

    Vintage is a far more imprecise term as compared to antique. There seems to be some consistency in references to not being less than 20 years old.
     
  9. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    All fair questions.

    First of all, the priniciple of Styleforum has always been to have an arms length relationship with affiliate vendors. Other forum owners have closer relationships with their advertisers, which has invariably led to issues. Officers and agents of Styleforum do not ever post reviews for payment in cash or in kind (well, Styleforum can pay them, but a company cannot), and we do not officially endorse any company or product.

    Specifically to @C&A 's question about Gianni's first post. we do not compel *any* member to write specific things in any of their posts. Doing so may or may not raise liability issues, but that is something of which we are always mindful. We really don't want to pay our lawyers more than we have to, and we have neither the inclination nor resources to monitor and verify the claims made by any affiliate vendor. I assume that Gianni wants to keep his first post as is because it reads well the way it is. Like I explained to the mods, it's copy, not a legal document. I could personally go in and edit the post myself, but our policy is to not do so unless there is a personal attack or personal information about another member, something that is unacceptable and will get us in all sorts of trouble, like porn, of it there is a racist slur. If you guys want to lobby Gianni, privately, to have his first post changed, I'd be happy to help him with the technicalities of doing so. Probably anyone who has burned their bridges with hims are probably not going to get very far, but there are members who are clearly on good terms with him.

    We do try to screen potential affiliate vendors (otherwise I'd probably be writing this from my private Island, given the number of casinos that have asked to advertise on the site), and try to recruit vendors with both a good reputation and that have goods that might be of interests to the community. Passagio Cravatte met both of those criteria. If there are serious, criminal legal actions taken against a vendor (I believe that this happened once only), or if there is documented and incontrovertable evidence that a vendor is defrauding customers (this has happened once, as well), then we terminate our contract with the vendor and take down all of their materials.

    Hope that clarifies our official position. If there is anything you'd like me to elaborate on, I am willing to do so as long as it doesn't violate any of our confidentiality agreements.

    Cheers,

    Fok.
     
    3 people like this.
  10. SartodiNapoli

    SartodiNapoli Senior member

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    I am glad someone posted the RULES that one is bending.

    Honour and dignity means all, at least for me, sadly it seems not for everyone.
     
  11. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    You are brushing this off a bit too easy @budapest12. Of course, if you don't want to hear anything bad about someone you are just not going to listen. But assuming you are not just blindly following Gianni in whatever he says, please look at these emails Gianni sent to a potential new customers in June 2014, so after all the controversies started and after Giannii issued his own "official statement"


    [quote name=cerutti.gianni@gmail.com]
    Hello Dear,

    here is the big file with WeTransfer within all our vintage silks.

    The download link just find it at the bottom of this email.

    To view all our vintage silks just click download.

    For me to understand what do you like me enough to know the code of each photo.

    And then together we'll think of all the choices for true bespoke.

    Let me know and thank you for everything,

    Gianni
    [/quote]

    here is another one


    [quote name=cerutti.gianni@gmail.com]
    Hello Dear,

    here is the big file with WeTransfer within all our vintage silks.

    The download link just find it at the bottom of this email.

    To view all our vintage silks just click download.


    For me to understand what do you like me enough to know the code of each photo.

    And then together we'll think of all the choices for true bespoke.



    Let me know and thank you for everything,

    Gianni[/quote]

    The wetransfer files he sent contain the samples that Claghorn uploaded upthread. NOTHING is mentioned about (i) part of his offerings being completely new, and (ii) part of his offerings being historic reproductions.

    Also the fact that my tie and pocket square have been identified WITHOUT ANY DOUBT by people daily handling tie silks either printing or selling them, both in Italy and the UK should make you at least wonder. Now sure you can dismiss all these people saying they are non-experts seeing it totally wrong and Gianni with his "four years between tie silks" is the expert here, but then you should really start questioning your own sanity.

    You seem to sympathize with Gianni - and I'm not going to mock you for that; I assume you have good reasons - so maybe you can help him stop the shit storm that is hitting him by convincing him that he should start to be transparent about what he offers (and offered) and also convince him that he should offer a resolution for those who feel misled. I can tell you that there are quite a few members that have not yet publicly voiced their dismay with the ties he has been selling them, but this will sooner or later be the case if Gianni doesn't act.
     
    3 people like this.
  12. Harold falcon

    Harold falcon Senior member

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    Such unreasonable requests.

    Oh wait, no they're not.
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. mimo

    mimo Senior member

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    Insane. My passion leads me to date young things. It's way better. Last thing you want when you're 42 is some other old bag moaning about her ex husband and her mortgage. 24 is fine to satisfy my thirst, or as I like to think of her, "barely vintage".

    Great thread this. Sorry for the diversion. xx
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
    6 people like this.
  14. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    This is his standard modus operandi. Before, I never thought this was enough reason to complain. Maybe it's the fact that all follow up emails have to go through Google Translate. And the ones asking whether you've decided and whether you've transferred the moniez are just a copy-paste job for him.

    Another thing that always struck me a bit old was the turn around time. Generally 6 to 8 weeks. Whereas bespoke ties from other makers such as Cappelli normally take 1 or 2 weeks max.



    His home market is actually very small. His countrymen will generally get their high end ties from reputable makers such as Marinella, Drake's, Cappelli, Battistoni etc.

    On top of that he made quite a mess in his "home market" and according to my tailor he has only a few local clients left.


     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  15. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Well judging from his constructive response to some reasonable questions asked in the AV thread


    It doesn't seem @budapest12 is the man to help Gianni setting things straight. Bit of a shame.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    I don't understand the turn around time either. I origibally presumed it was because he was running a very small local operation and was having trouble dealing with the huge influx of business after joining style forum. He has only been an AV for abouth 8 months I think. His actual websites is one of the least informative and least user friendly I have seen. I therefore thought he probably Only worked in and around Naples through word of mouth prior to this. How did you originally find him?

    I'm actually not sure what the delay on construction is now. It certainly isn't a backlog if orders since I asked him more than 6 weeks ago if I could change one of my orders to a different fabric (actually the navy/orange remake that started this mess) and he told me that it was not possible because all of the ties were already cut and in production....
     
  17. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    @christianch it seems to me these two posts are contradictory, or does your reply to @mimo's post mean that you relent on the point you made about vintage fabrics? You should take into account that Gianni's tie business concept is unique in the sense that I don't know of any other tie maker that claims to be making ties only (or for 90% or 99.9% I don't know anymore which definition Gianni uses) from vintage fabrics. It's his unique selling point. And repeats that ad nauseum here on SF and in all the blog interviews. If you google for Passaggio Cravatte you will see numerous blog posts hammering on the unique vintage aspect of his ties, like this one Bespoke ties by Passaggio Cravatte: 100% vintage,

    In my opinion it is way too easy to point out one or two cases (or three or four) where another maker has used the term 'vintage' (without providing the definition Gianni himself gave, i.e. 40-80 y/o, and as from Monday May 26th 20-80 y/o) which I believe in the case of your Drake's butterfly actually means vintage inspired, similar to what they do with these car print pocket squares http://www.drakes-london.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=vintage.



    I don't think anyone really demands Gianni disclose where he actually sources his fabrics. But over the past four weeks he has been asked a couple of times to be transparent which fabrics are vintage, new, historic reproductions, etc. I just cannot understand why he chooses to ignore these requests, which are generally voiced in a rather reasonable tone. By now it should be clear to him that keeping up a smoke screen and ignoring these requests is only harming his business.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  18. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    We were introduced to him by Riccardo Bestetti when he just started out and was still working as a journalist back in 2011. Both Gianni and Riccardo are from the Milan-region. Gianni's is from Robbio, close to Milan. The Napoli connection is that he gets his ties made by a third party workshop close to Napoli.

    AFAIK Passaggio Cravatte does have some name in the Milan-Como region, but is basically unknown in Napels (except of course for a few insiders and the people working at the third party workshop).

    It could take a bit longer because he has to get his fabrics from the North of Italy (Robbio) to the South (Napels) and then get the ties back again to Robbio to send them out to his clients. I have also heard from other members that he explained some of the delay by the fact that he needed to iron the ties, which surprised me actually, because it is my understanding he gets the ties ready to ship from the workshop. Although I cannot rule out he has changed the way he produces his ties, but it would be strange to get a half finished tie from the workshop.
     
  19. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    As @gsugsu says vintage is rather imprecise, and as @mimo points out the term is also used in marketing to refer to refer to a certain style. AFAIK Gianni's proposition is pretty unique in that he actually provides a clear definition for what he offers as vintage (40-80 y/o, and from Monday May 26th 20-80 y/o).
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  20. christianch

    christianch Well-Known Member

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    C&A,
    You are right about the contradiction. I was just based my initial, liberal view on the fact that some clients seems to be happy about the final result. I think the idea to sell ties from 100% vintage fabrics is a great one. It is unfortunate to see a good business idea going so wrong on execution. For me delivery time is so important that I would never pay in advance to wait for weeks/months. My little patience on delivery is probably why I buy virtually everything RTW e.g. Formosa Suits from No Man Walks Alone because their service is so amazing that when I pay and order they ship to me the same day. I am pretty much an impulse buyer so there you go. Four - Six weeks for a bespoke tie seems a long time to me and the fabrics confusion is indeed concerning.

    Gianni, if you are listening I think that you are losing much more money but not refunding these people that changed their mind and by not being 100% clear on status of your fabrics. Remember the clients are your most important asset.
     

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