Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by T4phage, Dec 15, 2011.
Can we get an English translation of that video?
My guess is that someone is working on it
@LA Guy, is there a reason why this specific topic is being deemed different than the other divisive issues we've had on this board? Foo, for example, often posts controversial things, and belabors his points endlessly, but I find the discussions that are driven out of those posts to be really useful. More so than the shopping posts that most of this board is occupied with (I'm not criticizing those posts or threads, but they do seem to have limited value).
Also, while Foo's threads are controversial - with participants not being respectful in the least - I've found them to actually bring the community here closer together, rather than drive people apart. It's those controversies that make for interesting reading.
I sympathize with your desire to keep the community glued together (as much of my interest in clothes is about the community that surrounds men's style rather than the clothes themselves). However, I also feel like a lot of this controversy was brought about because Gianni refused to respond. I worry that, by not allowing members to talk about this controversy here, people are just going to assume the worst, and talk about the topic elsewhere (on other forums, on Twitter, on blogs, or wherever). It doesn't seem realistic to stop a controversial conversation on the internet, and trying to seems like it'll just cause what has already happened: people feeling like something fishy is going on because they're not getting the response they want.
Anyway, I look forward to reading someone's translation of Giancarlo Maresca's comments.
And while I know people already know this, it might be worth stating that two matching patterns doesn't necessarily mean something. Patterns are duplicated from archives all the time. Here's a madder that Gianni posted recently, for example, and a duplicate of the pattern made for RL's pocket squares.
"Mr. Maresca, I am Francesco. Speak to me please of the history of the inkjet, which cannot be vintage, with the white backside."
"The first inkjet production began at Como in the 90s, the end of the 90s. It's about 15 years that they have been experimenting with this, even less. At the beginning, it was not very trustworthy, but now they realize interesting designs, with contrast - not, certainly, at the level of a block-printed silk. But for vintage, you couldn't mean anything but a block-printed silk. And certainly, a block-printed silk, (something I don't understand...I think he says "through a phase of corrosion") cannot leave a white backside - it is incompatible."
It continues from there to talk about inkjet-printed grenadine, but this seems the most relevant part.
I'm not sure that having a white backside is definitive proof that a silk has been ink jetted, personally. At least that's not how a silk printer explained it to me (FWIW, he happens to be a silk printer that provides silks to tie makers, along with other kinds of businesses).
I can check with him again in order to get clarification. I've been meaning to, but have just been really busy.
Who does Sam Hober's printed maccelfield silk? Is it in house?
Was going to use my Hober ties as a comparison, but the standard Hober construction doesn't allow me to see the "back" of the silk to see if it's white.
Doubt it's inkjette
If you get a chance to ask, make sure he understands that you mean a bright white of bleached silk, not just the raw silk color with the dye not saturated all the way through. I've been told that silk needs to be bleached before inkjetting but not block printing. Maybe it's technically possible to bleach silk and then block print onto it, and if you have the right combination of silk, print, and dye, it won't bleed through, even if that's not the way it would have commonly been done in the past.
Good point, and will do.
FWIW, when I spoke to Gianni about this, he said the whites on his ties looked brighter on the internet than they do in real life because he's color corrected them to look more saturated. The photos that Simon (from Permanent Style) and Dan (from An Uptown Dandy) posted do seem less bleached.
I certainly cannot stop *anything* from being discussed on the internet, but I can make a decision as to whether something is or is not detrimental to Styleforum. One of the things that has kept Styleforum vibrant all these years has been that the conversations have been collegial, and while not respectful in tone, respectful of the various participants. I think that in this discussion, we've crossed that line.
The difference between this topic and pretty much all of Foo's discussion topics is that they are nearly all silly, while this is rather serious. I think that allegations of theft are more serious than Foo's issues with snooty Hermes SAs. And these allegations are much more amorphous and difficult to answer than whether or not someone ordered pants and had not yet received them. As far as I know, everyone has received ties. It's the provenance of the silks that is in question, and from all the posts I've read, and blog posts from tiemakers, opinions are mixed, and it boils down to a "he said, he said" situation.
I read Gianni's post, and the subsequent discussion, and it seems that those who were not convinced remained unconvinced, and those who were convinced stayed convinced. As I posted before that explanation, those who are convinced will continue to patronize Gianni, and those who don't, will not. ime, there types of "controversies" are never resolved.
I've said this privately to the mods, and I may as well say this publicly. Over the last decade and a half or so, I've had the privilege of working with literally hundreds of designers, manufacturers, and retailers - and pretty much everyone has something bad to insinuate about their competition. Veiled and bald allegations of fraud, theft, and general dishonesty and bad business practices are the topic of many, many, conversations. There have been instances when I've talked to one manufacturer or retailer, and heard some pretty serious allegations, and then talked to the other retailer or manufacturer, and heard pretty much exactly the same thing about the first. Gossip and innuendo are common currency. The problem arises when gossip is told to customers who then take these opinions as gospel truth, and who then report these opinions to the general public.
We've actually rejected many affiliates requests to delete negative posts about their businesses that were made outside of their affiliate threads. We even had to give two affiliates the boot because they were defrauding members (as in, goods were paid for and never received) or were found liable for misleading and illegal business practices (and no, I'm not going into further detail about either case.) However, in this case, there are actual, unsubstantiated allegations of fraud and theft. I made a judgement call based on what I've read and what I know about the garment trade. Some may disagree with my decision, but it's ultimately my responsibility to weigh the pros and cons, and make that decision.
I agree with you that accusations (often false) get thrown around a lot in the clothing trade. And agree that it's dangerous if something gets picked up by the public and taken for gospel.
FWIW, I feel like much of the conversation so far has centered on whether or not Gianni's fabrics are indeed vintage. And that seems like an important point since that's how he advertises them. His whole selling point is 1) his ties are bespoke and 2) his fabrics are vintage. I don't think the second part is trivial, as that seems to be the reason why people are willing to pay unusually high prices.
Foo's made accusations of tailors and makers beyond snooty SAs and non-delivered pants. He's said that my tailor glues seams instead of sews them. He's also accused Simonnot Godard of using polyster in fabrics they advertised as pure cotton. I don't think he's right on the first part, but he was right on the second, which was awesome cause I picked up a bunch of that fabric at basement prices after it was deemed undesirable by everyone.
But back to Gianni, I think this accusation about theft is pretty secondary. Most of this seems to be about whether or not his silks are as advertised.
You are always free to discuss customer service and the quality of fabrication.
The "vintage or not" thing seems sorta silly to me. Having strong opinions about anything based on low res, adjusted, pictures on the internet is ridiculous, and the "experts" seem to be divided on the subject anyway. I am tempted to not allow it, just to save myself the hassle of wading through all the posts, but I'm not going to do so. Instead, think of this as a boxing match. You get one warning for a low blow (which has already been issued), and after that, you have to be more careful about letting your hands travel south of the equator, because you'll get a point deducted if you do.
Here are the photo’s of two silks referred to earlier on this and the AV thread and pictures of the same I took just now with some natural daylight, no flash.
For comparison, see these pictures uploaded by Jason in his own thread where he explained what he thinks is the difference between silk screened and inkjet
It is pretty much the same as T4Phage’s post about the difference between inkjet and silkscreened that he posted in the Cappelli thread and which has been quoted in my earlier post here. It is also commensurate with the explanation given by other experts, some mentioned in earlier posts here above.
According to the experts that I have heard so far, silk screening results in color migration to the back side. And saying a silk screened tie will not have a white back, unless only very very light colours have been used. All in line with this explanation by Jason.
As you can see from the pictures uploaded by T4Phage in the Cappelli thread the colour somewhat shines through and there may be some colour migration to the back when using inkjet printing.
Now it would be nice if Gianni Cerutti could explain what ancient technique was used to arrive at the white back vintage silks he is offering.
Anyway, despite the strong aversion against inkjet printed silks he voiced earlier
I believe that he recently changed his tune, saying that from the outset his selection also included inkjet printed silks.
Now the 1 million $ question is how Gianni himself differentiates between his white backed inkjet printed silks and the white backed vintage silks. Moreover, how he is able to pinpoint the actual year of production of his vintage silks as he has been doing in numerous of his posts. Gianni Cerutti and the blogger that met him in London seem to indicate it can be done by touching the fabric.
I find it very hard to believe, this story of age detectors in the fingertips, but maybe I’m just being skeptical….. Overall I’m pretty skeptical though about Gianni Cerutti’s knowledge about fabrics, which was exemplified by identifying 5-10 year old English silks he sold in 2011 as 70 y/o Italian silks. And also seems to be the impression agjiffy got when he bought some fabric in Milan with Gianni Cerutti.
Anyone tried to conduct radiocarbon dating on he tie fabrics yet? Maybe that's an objective way to determine the age of the fabrics.
Or that's not kosher either?
I don't have a pony in this race. I do have a PC tie, but I bought it second hand, and I didn't buy it because it was vintage (though it is...I think. No white back). I'd be...content...with Gianni at least changing his first post to reflect the more accurate description of his silks which he recently provided. I said it in that thread, and I just want to say it here. Bare minimum, I don't think anyone can dispute that to be the right thing to do.
Corrosion with now banned on EU agressive chemicals is the old process of stamp. That is what he said to me on the audio.
Separate names with a comma.