new ties -- passagio

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by T4phage, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think it may have something to do with the contract between AV's and SF. LA Guy said something along the lines of not being able to compel Gianni to do something (without terminating the contract, I'm assuming). And since LA Guy felt he doesn't have the grounds to terminate the contract, nothing was done. Just my interpretation of what happened and what LA Guy has said.
     


  2. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Wouldn't an AV be bound to the same Terms of Service as the members are bound to? Wouldn't some Gianni's representations in the OP of his AV thread be in violation of these terms?



    At the very least some claims made by Gianni in his OP are misleading in the light of his own "official statement". All this apart from the other allegations and controversies which some may not be convinced are proven.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014


  3. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    It would be good if @LA Guy could clarify. So the 'normal' members know whether there is an agreement between SF and its AV's which results in the AV's not being bound to the Terms of Service. We can then keep that in the back of our minds when looking at other AV threads. Assuming for now that AV's are held to the same Terms of Services, I would not only expect @LA Guy / SF Management to require Gianni to amend his OP in light of his own "official statement", but I would actually also expect that Gianni is required to identify the inkjet printed silks he has sold to members here from starting his AV thread until his "official statement" of Monday May 26th. Only in that "official statement" Gianni says:
    Apart from stretching his own initial definition of vintage which he repeated ad nauseum all over the internet and here on SF, he is now saying that his offering always included historical reproductions that are inkjet printed. Since his start here at SF he has again and again repeated that his vintage fabrics were all 40-80 year old
    and (II) there was no inkjet included in his offerings. he actually detested inkjet as you may recall
    Now all of a sudden he says that he does sell inkjet printed silks! So without doubt there are people that have been sold vintage fabrics which are in fact inkjet printed silks. So surely, this cannot be brushed of as just a “he said – she said” discussion
    where no satisfactory conclusion can be reached
    Because in fact both sides are now saying that Gianni Cerutti has been selling inkjet printed silks which he marketed as vintage under his own old definition of vintage [which definition excluded inkjet printed silks because the inkjet print technique is not 40 y/o]. Clearly this is a case where members that bought from the AV have been misled. Which is prohibited by the Terms of Use. SF Management would clearly be in a position to require Gianni to set this right. It would be really interesting to see which silks Gianni will identify as inkjet printed, because as far as I understand Gianni has thus far has explicitly or implicitly denied any of these ties to be inkjet printed, but he has clearly stated that he has been selling inkjet prints:
    Quickly went through this thread to see whether it is a one-off. But it seems to me there might be quite a few others. To quote just a few:
    I find it very hard to believe these are all pictures of hand printed silks that have been photoshopped or adjusted to look like inkjet prints as @LA Guy seems to suggest:
    But let's wait and see Gianni's response once he has been asked by @LA Guy / SF Mangement to clear up this matter.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014


  4. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    At the same time, I would expect the AV contract to supercede the regular member Terms and Conditions. Which is only fair.

    But yeah, I'd definitely be interested in what contractual obligation prevents SF management from compelling Gianni to amend that first post (which any new potential customers will be sure to read).
     


  5. fassbinder

    fassbinder Senior member

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    Dear @c&a,

    You keep including in your posts a tie of mine that you say might be an ink jet print. I can assure you that the white appearance is the result of the photo shopping. Here is another photo of the back of my tie that show more clearly that this tie is not ink jet. I have white backed ink jet ties and this is not one of them. I expect in the name of fair play, you will remove reference of my tie from all your posts on this and other sites. Its presence only serves to discredit your argument.

    [​IMG]
     


  6. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Sure. Thanks.
     


  7. Loathing

    Loathing Senior member

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    I echoed your sentiments in the official thread, C&A, but my posts were all deleted. I saw similar posts by other people which have also been deleted. All that needs to be done is this: Gianna needs to change his first post, and make clear whenever he's not certain of the provenance of a fabric, or whether its inkjet. I don't think he's a particularly deceitful guy, I just think he's a bit eccentric and overconfident, and possibly doesn't know what he's talking about.

    But I also think it would be very unfair to hold the regular members of the forum to different standards to the vendors. Regular members are clients of Styleforum just as much as AVs, and regular members are also clients of the AVs. In fact, regular members are not only clients but unpaid employees in a sense, since they provide most of the knowledge and work which makes the site valuable and monetizable.

    I'm not suggesting that Styleforum has any legal obligations, but I think the forum should act in the spirit of fairness with respect for the membership. Especially when the whole raison d'être of this forum for many people is to work together to expose all the bullshit marketing that exists around clothing, and find real, no-nonsense clothes.

    I wonder what would have happened if Anna Matuozzo had been an Affiliate vendor when she started substituting machine-stiching for handwork but continuing to charge €350-400 per shirt (the going price for a fully hand-made shirt in Naples).

    I also get the impression that these sorts of débâcles cause bitterness in the community, which puts some people off using the forum. I've personally been really put off.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014


  8. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    A thought occurred to me. Throughout this whole debate, and Gianni's acknowledgement that 10% of his prints are recreations - although he has not formally stated the are inkjet prints - we have not seen any postings of said recreations that have been clearly described as such. Not from Gianni nor from any customers. Now, he has stated that he clearly identifies which are vintage and which are not.

    Given that he sends large files containing pictures of his fabrics to all interested parties, one would expect that someone, somewhere chose a fabric that was a recreation and - based on his declaration of transparency - would have been informed of this fact. Yet, nothing as such has been posted.

    Doesn't it defy the odds? Surely even one of his supporters would have posted saying "no, he told me this print was a modern fabric" in support of him.
     


  9. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    These are the swatches he sent to me, all labeled as vintage silk (except the grenadines). It doesn't look like any of these are recent, with one or two exceptions (namely the brown neat with blue florets).

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  10. othertravel

    othertravel Senior member

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    Thanks for posting this. Nice samples.
     


  11. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    So much of this could be avoided if 1) Gianni answered questions forthrightly and 2) he just said "these are some fabrics I found in old stockrooms. I think they may be vintage, but in any case, they look nice." Because some of those fabrics above do look nice.

    I've been on the market to buy a Navajo weaving, and it's crazy how much knowledge one has to have in order to identify and date when something was made. Even when it's done, it's not pegged to a decade, it's to some broad period. Gianni's claim that "things are obvious," and that he "can feel the vintage-ness" because of his "passion" is totally absurd.

    Anyway, I emailed the printer I know. If I hear back, I'll you guys know what he says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014


  12. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    Careful lest you be labelled a dead horse beater!

    In all seriousness, this continues to swirl simply because of the lack of precise answers that anyone with a modicum of critical evaluation expects. If many of us are characterized as being harsh and continuing to push it is for this reason. Many were customers and purchased more than a solitary tie that we are thrilled to have acquired and will wear proudly secure in the knowledge that we have something created for us. Sorry, but I am more mercenary than that.

    I am more interested in what this forum and its members do when inconsistencies present. It seems I may be in the minority and should just appreciate a pretty thing for what it is.

    A symptom of me getting old and crotchety might explain this.
     


  13. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Come on man! First you complain about people dicking around in the AV thread of Gianni and now you start doing the same here and in the Cappelli thread?

    If you don't feel like contributing anything useful, then at least make some good jokes, so we can have a laugh, instead of these lame comments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014


  14. othertravel

    othertravel Senior member

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    Ok ok, you may have a point. I do like the samples however as I haven't actually seen a comprehensive set of the silks he offers.
     


  15. othertravel

    othertravel Senior member

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    I will relent on this point as well (let's resurrect the horse!). I think your line of questioning is valid, especially if you were/are a current customer.

    I think I was getting annoyed at the less than productive comments from other posters, which prevented me from sorting between members who offer thoughtful insights/questions ( @dieworkwear @gsugsu @C&A ) and those that didn't.

    On a more productive note, how old would you guys consider vintage? 20+ years?

    And C&A, thanks for your tie suggestions. Appreciated!
     


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