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new ties -- passagio

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by T4phage, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Thanks for clearing that up!

    There have been some issues with construction of Passaggio ties as well. Although the majority comes out alright. I think that is mainly due to the fact that Gianni proposes to make up every tie as an unlined 7 fold (ideally a one piece if there is enough fabric). This certainly is not the ideal way to construct all fabrics. I know of a cashmere tie Gianni made for @T4phage that kept opening up. Gianni tried to remedy that though. I also found it very difficult to get a nice know out of some of the ties I bought from him that I picked from pictures he sent me, because for me the silk was too flimsy to get a proper knot without any interlining. I must say that Gianni was happy to add interlining to these ties though without any additional costs. Unfortunately these ties got lost in transit when I shipped them back to Robbio [my bad I should have insured them].
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  2. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    I actually found in my initial research that pretty much every blog review and interview of Gianni/PC states that his fabrics are a combination of vintage, reproductions of vintage and "vintage inspired". I forget where but a couple stated his fabrics were 80% vintage. This is why I was surprised there was so much hooplah about people thinking everything was vintage.
    In fact I remember when I first looked at his samples I was trying to figure out which were vintage and which were reproductions because I really wanted true vintage but was too embarrassed to ask. Being new to ties and fabrics and thinking that it was probably quite obvious to everyone else on SF what was what.
    I worked out for myself that the white backed ones were probably the reproductions though that was just guesswork because they looked newer and all or the truly ancient looking ties posted had colored backing.
     
  3. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Well, his opening post in the Affiliate Thread is pretty clear



    No mention of reproductions, new fabrics etc.

    I think you were reading very selectively if you found on pretty much every blog that Passaggio also used reproductions of vintage and vintage inspired ties, because in quite a few blog interviews Passaggio Caravette was portrayed as exclusively using vintage fabrics

    We are the only ones who make their ties only with custom vintage fabrics

    After we agreed to work together, he sent me over 200 high resolution photos of vintage fabrics he has on hand, silks, grenadines, knits in wool and cashmere,you name it.

    First, the raw materials that go into the ties. Almost all of the ties are made from very nice vintage silk, or other vintage textile. So once a fabric is gone, it is gone for good

    I don't think its hyperbole to say that the company produces some of the most beautiful ties in the world, made from vintage silks using techniques that have been passed down for over 100 years.

    Our neckties are the only ones to realize tailor-made ties with only real vintage fabrics. All our fabrics have 30 to 80 years of life on its shoulders. Quantities are limited, and all of our designs and colors are exclusive.

    For example, we have only vintage printed silks, still hand made.

    using very best vintage silks- the best part is the limited edition nature of each creation as each collection of material only allows for a maximum of 4 ties.


    I did see a few blog interviews that mentioned that the ties were made from vintage fabrics (90%), or vintage inspired silks (10%). But for the latter category it was then emphasized that these were recreated using on modern silk with the same weft as the originals and were always hand printed. The ones that were explicitly mentioned as being recreated were "a selection of jacquard and regimental patterns from the 30s that Passaggio is currently reediting". Nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE, there was ever any mention of inkjet printed silks. You may recall my earlier quote from Gianni where he said that he hated the digital (inkjet) prints:




    So it surprises me that you are now saying that it was clear (to you) that there were inkjet printed silks in his collection all along, I didn't know it and I even spent an evening chatting with the guy. At least I would have expected the historic recreations to be hand printed. As Gianni has also reconfirmed quite recently after the controversies started:






    I'm curious how you spotted the white backs? You looked at the pictures Gianni uploaded in his thread? Because you can't spot the white backed silks from the Wetransfer files Gianni sends out. Those pictures only show the front of the fabric.

    Also, before the controversies started, I honestly didn't know that white backed silks were inkjet printed. it took me a lot of conversations with people in the tie trade to get a basic understanding. And I believe I'm not alone here, quite a lot of members here, bloggers, the Rake magazine that didn't notice anything before the controversies started. So I'm really impressed you worked it out all by yourself.

    And even if the back is colored it doesn't tell you anything about the age really. So even if you could see the back of Gianni's offerings that wouldn't tell you that they are vintage. Colored backs only tell you that it was silk screened or block printed. And given Gianni's answers to the questions raised about the navy/red/yellow David Evans blockprint he probably has no clue himself.

    Talking to these people in the tie silk trade did make me realize that most patterns offered by Marinella, Drakes, Cappelli, et cetera are in fact also vintage reproduction. For their current collections all these tie makers drawn on the archives of the printers. Which archives really go back the 80+ years Gianni likes to mention.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
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  4. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    C&A, were the ties sold to you from the very beginning claimed as all vintage? The first T4page post said that at that time, some ties were vintage reproductions with some real vintage. Were you there at that event? Did Gianni label which was which? Or did you only get on board later?
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  5. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    I was there. He told us the that the brighter real vibrant colours he carried were new hand printed silks with a 'vintage feel', from those I only got a yellow summer tie, And he had a lot of garza clippings with him, plain ones like all the tie makers carry, and patterned ones that he could do small reruns of. Out of the latter I ordered the brown/orange garza. All the other fabrics he told us were vintage. As you can also see from the posts I made earlier in this thread:


     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
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  6. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    Well put. I think too it is important to point out that C&A was an early adopter of PC ties and unlike almost all others here actually has dealt with Gianni in person. So his recollection that Gianni spoke almost exclusively about vintage fabrics is key. Only later does it come out that there may be reproductions. So the "truth" has moved from 100% vintage silks to 99.9 to 90/10 to 80/20 to whatever the real answer is. The age of the silks were first described as 30, 40, 50 years old and older only to have the latest information suggest that vintage includes 20 year old fabrics as well. The regimentals have been referenced in several places as the focus of the reproductions. The method of reproduction has moved from being done by the last remaining shop in Italy to do hand screening to - although yet to be fully admitted by Gianni - probably inkjet reproductions. How do we know? Why would Gianni makes statements that inkjet prints can be of high quality because it is the silk used that determines that. Plus, he states that inkjets can be considered vintage as they have been done for 20 years. This from
    someone who stated he doesn't like inkjets!

    The confusion over whether specific prints came from English or Italian archives. The English Evans prints only become Italian if reproduced by an Italian printer (and certainly not hand printed).

    So if ovlov's research has provided him with confidence as to where the truth resides he is far more intuitive to come to these conclusions based on his readings as compared to individuals like C&A and T4 who have discussed this with people in the trade.

    Ovlov also has come to the party late. Had he arrived early he too, if he is a reasonable man, would have similar concerns. This is not just about the percentage of vintage to reproduction ratios. It is about an AV on SF and out in the world that has spun a wonderful fabric of a tale but who refuses to acknowledge that the threads are unraveling even though some are pointing to the ever growing mess at his feet
     
  7. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Ironically, according to the people we have been speaking to the early (vintage?) inkjets were of rather poor quality, but both printers in England and Italy said that especially the Italian printers have made great advancements in recent years and their more recent inkjets are much better than the early ones.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  8. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    @gsugsu , I actually have been around since this fiasco began,. As I said I have an order in the works at the moment that was finalized just days before the phit hit the fan.

    I honestly don't recall where I looked. I just remember when I was considering making my first purchase I read a bunch of reviews and blogs and came to the conclusion that not all of PC's fabrics were vintage to the point I automatically though the first post on the AV thread was just puff that anyone could see past.

    I have a poor imagination so all of my checking of the wetransfer downloads was cross referenced with all of the posts on the AV thread and various blogs. I also avoided any non grenadine that was available in multiple colorways (Until I saw your thread for the Cappelli order I mistakenly believed that no pattered grenadine existed anymore). I still have 1 tie coming that i haven't seen the backing of so I am a little concerned about that one.

    @C&A I wish you would stop posting that pink cashmere. Makes me frustrated I can't get one [​IMG]
     
  9. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    Well since you asked I checked with Patrizio Cappelli - the one who commissioned this fabric in the first place - and he told me he has enough left for 2 three folds or 1 seven fold.
     
  10. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    Get it while you can!
     
  11. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior member

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    Ouch!

    I think that EG Cappelli's ties are cheaper, too. An unlined, cashmere, seven-fold tie from Cappelli will cost about 160 Euro (including VAT) or 130 Euro (without VAT).
     
  12. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    @Journeyman cappelli doesn't waive VAT (nor does Goanni); i presume it's a cheeky Italian practice.

    @C&A thanks. Not sure if ill be able to make another order for a while but for reference, is that tie cashmere or just wool?
     
  13. SartodiNapoli

    SartodiNapoli Senior member

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    I suspect Gianni lacks of vat number but if the other does that is doing an illegal aallegued fraud and that is not an italian common practice but a youknowwhatword is...
     
  14. sangiuseppe

    sangiuseppe Senior member

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    I Have dealt with few fabric shops that were reluctant to detract the vat from the total price. I don't know if they were just been lazy or if doing so would require more paperwork to present to the accountant.
     
  15. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    It is cashmere
     
  16. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    Really? A recent exchange with Capelli indicated to me that he doesn't use pure cashmere as it is too expensive. That said I might have misunderstood because I thought he meant that all of his ties on the web store "wool cashmere" section were blends but the tie I chose ended up being pure wool (still a lovely tie though, just not what I was expecting)
     
  17. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    On the issue of vat am I mistaken here? Has anyone managed to get vat deducted from their Capelli or passaggio purchases?
     
  18. gsugsu

    gsugsu Senior member

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    Well, C&A can confirm. See the post below here. But since the fabric originally came from Cappelli, maybe it is a cashmere/wool mix


    Just before Christmas my first Passaggio tie arrived. Wearing it for the first time today. Made from a vintage cashmere. The ties are made in Naples in the old Marinella workroom. IMO workmanship and construction are very nice, comparable to my Cappelli's.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. C&A

    C&A Senior member

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    I'm totally at a loss about his production process TBH, especially looking at these posts by Gianni and @CHRK33 over the past month. The ties seem to hit the production stage quite soon after payment is made. Then it seems to take forever for the ties to get actually finished. It's like a black box really. May 27th
    May 27th
    May 28th
    June 14th
    June 14th
     
  20. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    Re VAT exemptions :

    It is a lot of paperwork and associated cost to apply a VAT exception in Italy which in turn will cause almost certainly continuos tax inspections. I suspect that is what happened to NSM when they asked clients to confirm their address and details. There is no fraudulent approach in making all customers paying VAT as it is a tax that goes straight to the government not a way to earn more by the seller, so no need of silly accusation of tax fraud by the usual suspect.
     

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