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Neckties: A Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, Sep 15, 2015.

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  1. House of KYDOS

    House of KYDOS Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    @white collar Ties where not always made with interlinging. At least my great grandfather didnt use any when he was making ties and we ware talking about the early 1900s. Of course he used fabrics that were giving a desired drape and a desired thickness for a tie

    Interlining is not necessesary unless you are looking to use very very light weight fabrics, that cannot "stand" on their own and also if you are looking for a certain standard tie knot look and a certain "feel" of the tie every time you tie your tie. just for your guidance, for a tie maker the easiest thing is to use interling and the most economic to use lightweight fabrics..(i can elaborate on this point for anyone who may wish so)

    On the other hand a tie without interlinging will give you different kind of knots depending on the weight of the fabric and freedom to have more dimples. And if you go for a silk 7-fold or 8-fold, then you are bound to get a quality fabric, otherwise the result wont be good ;)

    So in my book, there is no right nor wrong (i know there are SF preferences here but..), it is a matter of taste. Standard knots are nice and so are the not so standard knots.

    What some people prefer on unlined ties, is that when they wear one, they wrap their neck with pure silk and in a hot weather country like mine for example, its not fun to have wool or cotton (sadly some time even poliester) interlining, along with the silk, wraped around the neck, it feels hot and heavy and ... annoying. In fact once customers gets used to unlined ties, some of them find lined ties heavy around their neck even in winter.

    As to the wrinkling, i wouldnt worry at all, as long as the fabric used is appropriate for constructing an unlined tie. A good construction tie and a proper rest/hanging of the tie will give your tie many years of good life

    To cut the long story short, if you are not certain what you are looking for and you only have 3-fold upto today, i suggest the good old "trial and error" technique.Conctact your tie maker and ask him for 3 ties. His 3 fold, his 6 fold and his unlined 7-fold. use them, experience them (share the experience with the rest of us here in sf) and then decide on your next move

    Keep though in mind that not all tie makers make the same kind of ties, the same way not all tailors make the same kind of suits. I can assure you of that

    enjoy the ride

    Paris
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
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  2. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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  3. white collar

    white collar Senior member

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    Would you you recommend a 5 fold over a 3 fold?
    Wow! That is a wealth of knowledge, thank you for sharing and taking the time to write all that, I will print it for future reference. I was surprised to see that I had to pick a lining for ties that weren't 7 fold and figured anything over a 3 fold shouldn't need to be lined. I think I will take your advice and order several different variations to experiment with. Probably a 5 fold and a 7 fold, I can't see the benefit of a 6 fold. Will keep the thread updated once the ties come in!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
  4. SartodiNapoli

    SartodiNapoli Senior member

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    Hi,

    Woud like to comment my experience.

    I have practiced and learnt among all the famous Neapolitan tiemakers and never seen a tie made without interlining, when people calls unlined, from my understanding, is a “fake” believing, as got the exact same layers of interlining but just are cutted on the tip at the bartack placement ( aprox +18-25 cms from the tip) so the back of the silk fabric is seen nude, instead of an ugly white or orange fabric.

    The only real unlined ties (I have never seen one in person) are back from as you say, one or half century ago. This is what I have been told from the masters when I was learning.

    Some people mails us commercial ties that got petrol derivates as you say interlining so we refurbish and exchange to natural wool/cotton so the tie perspirate, as you say polyester, polyamide and petrol, what are used on even very expensive commercial ties as Armani, Boss, D & G... and all the big names to save a few cents per tie and get the maximun possible industrial benefit sacrificing quality (well, 99% of rtw business is based on that concept)...

    That brings a lot of sweat on the neck and are thick (as getting your neck wrapped with a supermarket plastic bag) specially on Winter or Summer since on USA all the buildings got very (or too much) powerful heating systems, for South Europeans as me where never snows on our cities was shocking to see on USA people on shorts and T-shirt at over 30 degrees celsius inside their homes while on the outside was over 50 cms of snow on pure Winter...

    From my own experiments, a tie without real line (unless maybe very stiff heavy silk) would perform as a scarf and would be moving to the sides all the time when walking, some old tailors used to put lead inside the cuffs of their jacket sleeves to avoid this exact behaviour (again I have never seen this in person, just legends people on their late 80´s said to me) but I might be wrong and would welcome to see a real unlined tie that performs properly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  5. gshen

    gshen Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    Well, we make true unlined ties in a six-fold construction. I can't speak for other makers, but all the ties we describe as "unlined six-folds" are completely without interlining. We also make lined six-fold and four-fold ties which have a partial 100% wool interlining. Partial because it begins and ends a few inches above the bar tack, so it remains out of sight especially when the tie is untipped (all of our ties are untipped with hand-rolled edges).

    Also relevant to this discussion is the fact that we've seen many ties described as "six-fold", eight fold, 12 fold, which are only folded 6, 8 or 12 times over at the front and rear tips which are visible. Past the bartack where you can't see, they are really only standard 3-fold ties. This is all fine if the folds are done for aesthetics only, but I believe most guys who would care about buying a multifold tie do so because they believe the extra folds make a difference in the knot. You can tell this easily by feeling the area around the bartack - if the tie feels distinctly less going up past the bartack, this is what happened.

    Obviously, our six-fold or four-fold ties are genuinely the number of folds they describe - six (or four) folds of fabric throughout the length of the tie, so the drape you get from the tie is coming 100% from the drape of the fabric and does not rely on an interlining. Interlining does help with some fabrics that are too light, like most printed silks for example, and we use our experience to judge if a fabric is suitable for an unlined construction or not.

    Perhaps the issue is one of language or convention - it's fairly well known that the Italians tend to describe untipped, lined six-folds as unlined seven folds, but we do our best to describe our product accurately and fairly.
     
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  6. lordsuperb

    lordsuperb Senior member

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    Totally demented!!!
     
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  7. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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    +1
     
  8. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have never seen a true unlined Italian tie but most likely there are some here and there.

    Elsewhere in the world it is very easy to find true unlined ties - I can assure you that we make them regularly and all real bespoke tie makers can also make them when requested.

    The last I looked Robert Talbott in America was making unlined 7-folds and has been doing so for a long time.

    As for an unlined tie performing like a scarf it is true that they tend to blow a bit in the wind but blowing like a scarf is also a bit of an exaggeration...
     
    2 people like this.
  9. white collar

    white collar Senior member

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    Well my current plan is to order 5 fold lightly lined ties as I plan to only wear the particular ones I'm ordering in the spring and summer. Unless someone can make a case for going with regular lining, the additional fold (or 2), or both. To be honest I would have no interest in a completely unlined tie, if it's that hot out outside I'll be a typical American in shorts and a t-shirt. Although I did see an interview done at the E.G. Cappelli store where they mentioned they do get requests for completely unlined ties and happily make them.
     
  10. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Unless you have a special reason for a lightly lined tie you should always get the normal intérlining.

    I base this on the experience of making ties daily and listening to feedback.

    Also unless you have a preference for a heavier tie there is no reason for a 5 fold construction as you have already mentioned your interest in light interlining.

    A 5 fold construction and light interlining are not the best plan.

    Unless you have done this before and love it then it is fine beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

    Remember a well made luxury tie can be worn year round with only a few exceptions...
     
  11. d4rkiez

    d4rkiez Member

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    How about ties made of wool or wool/cashmere. Are there any merits for interlining when we compare a 4 fold + interlining vs a 6 or 7 fold? I understand for silk tie the pure wool interlining helps to even out the creases when undone
     
  12. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Again trust your tie maker as a general rule all fabrics even wool challis cashmere etc are better with interlinings.

    Helping with creases is not the only reason for interlinings.

    Please note I am talking about a beautiful 100 percent wool Italian luxury interlining

    Also again there is no need for more than 3 folds unless you like the feeling of a heavier tie.
     
  13. white collar

    white collar Senior member

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    3 fold normal lining then. For some reason I thought most of Styleforum disliked 3 folds in favor of the all holy 7 fold. I only own 3 folds as of now so thats fine for me. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this discussion, I'll be sure to share when the order comes in!
     
  14. House of KYDOS

    House of KYDOS Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    Hello @SartodiNapoli ,

    i am sorry it took me so long to reply. if my great grandfather was making them in the early 1900s in Greece then i bet they were making them in Italy as well. truth is that it is very hard to make an 8-fold tie without interlining. it requires alot of care, patience and alot of time, which translates to high costs and maybe that is why not many make unlined ties anymore (and its part of our price tag as well). the unlined 7-fold is an easier option as one can get away without balancing the folds, so it can be finished faster and its is less expensive. that is not nice, but some elect do it

    we currently make 2 types of unlined ties. one is the 8-fold (elafria) which you see me posting every so and then on our affiliate and the other is a 4-fold (panalafri). the 8-fold doesnt blow away because there are so many layers of fabric, still it has a "flow" which i find elegant and it is light weight and cooler around the neck as we already discussed.

    the 4-fold now, is a different thing and it realy does feel like a scarf, which is good for me because in the heat you forget that you are wearing a tie and still look properly dress for any occassion. can it get blown away? yes, and its fun (ladies like it for sure) and for those that they mind it so much there are tie clips available


    another important factor to quality tie making are of course the fabrics and that is were intelining interfers once again... but thats another big issue

    i wish you a good weekend and waiting to hear your thoughts

    paris
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  15. stook1

    stook1 Active Member

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    Hi Folks, I'm interested in some feedback on the versatility and impressions of the Kent Wang bicolor grenadine here: http://www.kentwang.com/ties/grenadine-bicolor-burgundy-black.html

    It is listed as burgundy with black undertones but shows with a somewhat purple-ish tone. I traded notes with Jonathan from Kent Wang about it yesterday. Hopefully he doesn't mind my sharing his impressions here. What he said follows:

    "The essence of the tie is very unique and is quite hard to describe. In my opinion from a distance it would look almost like a dark burgundy but once up close you can see it as a dark shade of purple. The black color is woven into the tie as a complement so you won't see a distinctive shade of the black all at once."

    This would be my first grenadine and also my first solid colored tie. I have some subtle patterns but not solids. I was originally planning to get a solid navy grenadine but this one is in stock now in the right size and length for me and was thinking about getting this one now and the navy later.

    That having been said, I was curious what folks think of this bi-color tie? Versatile? Or stick with the more classic true solids in one of the colors that people typically suggest (ie. navy, black, dark green, wine, burgundy, etc.).

    thank you!
     
  16. bc78

    bc78 Senior member

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    I have a similar tie from Hober. It's versatile enough, sure. For your first grenadine navy or a more traditional dark burgundy would be more versatile though. Besides the colors you listed, brown and silver grenadines are quite useful.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  17. ericgereghty

    ericgereghty Senior member

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    Great call here. Pair with a navy suit and crisp white shirt, and you'll be as sharp as can be.
     
  18. bc78

    bc78 Senior member

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    thank you!

    not to derail you stook, but once you get your grenadine fix, you may want to check out Wang's silver wedding ties. they're quite nice too
     
  19. stook1

    stook1 Active Member

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    No worries! Not sure I love the silver, really. I have sort of a light olive color complexion and almost black hair so I feel like I look a bit better with richer toned ties. Not sure I can pull off the silver tie with grey suit also, whereas some of the other colors could work with grey or navy suits (correct me if I am wrong, admittedly my stylistic sense lacks the refinement of most of the gentlemen posting).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  20. bc78

    bc78 Senior member

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    A dark burgundy might be good then

    You could wear a silver tie with a grey suit and white shirt, I suppose, but I think navy is far better
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017

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