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Neckties: A Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, Sep 15, 2015.

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  1. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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    Reading DiplomaticTies' comment on 500 ties, I am inspired to throw caution to the wind and order some ties I was looking at.
    Seeing TweedyProf's image of a handrolled printed silk tie, my brain is jogged to ask a question:

    What is the current preferred construction to order from the somewhat byzantine Cappelli site and achieve an optimal tie? I realize that "optimal" may vary here, but I refer to the discussion that has been frequently had in the EGC thread on varying quality of results in terms of thickness and folds being used in configurations that are not ideal, and of the stock ties having a way too thick interlining.

    I'm looking at printed silks. Obviously the easiest way to avoid unintended thickness is get the "unlined" (= light lining and hand rolled edge) option, but I've always felt that hand rolled edges are a bit out of place on a dressier foulard tie, which is the ones I was looking at. Anyone care to weigh in? I assume you are all one-time or current Cappelli customers. I'm thinking something in the way of Vanda construction or slightly heavier. My past Cappelli ties are all over the place construction/wearability wise, some good, some great, some weird.
     
  2. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    TweedyProf,

    Bringing price into the discussion is not a mistake as it is part of the charm of a well made tie - not how it is expensive but the opposite if you can find a well made tie with a fabric that you like that you can wear for years then it is not expensive at all. Divide the price by the number of years that you wear it. The same for shirts and suits.

    Normally all luxury tie makers do a fairly good job and the silk is almost always beautifully made. Drakes for example has a strong point in selecting some wonderfully classic fabrics.

    Don't be concerned about the presence of a slip stitch and cutting on a bias all good ties are fine in that respect.

    In some ways the construction of a luxury tie is easy to feel and is the sum total of the parts. But this is subjective and I am trying to stay away from subjective comments although in the end beauty is always in the eye of the beholder...

    Taking a tie apart does not serve much purpose when it is just as easy to comment on making a tie. Although when you take a tie apart you can see the type of interlining used and some sewing details.

    I remember walking into the Charvet shop a long time ago and being amazed at their poor construction - by this I mean they had ties for sale with labels falling off - which is a telltale indicator of other construction problems.

    They do have some beautiful silks with contrasting warps and weft silk. In some ways their claim to fame is based on a wide variety of colors especially for their shirts which I admire very much.

    I don't see a difference between the construction quality of 7-folds and 3-folds within the major brands either they make a good tie or they don't.

    Keep in mind almost any tie maker in Italy can make a truly great luxury tie if they want to - it is just a matter of time and energy. all the Italian name brands are about equal in construction. The very expensive prices are due to their brand name and designs - that is it. Although a company like Hermes does some very beautiful prints which are expensive to do and they throw out the imperfect prints rather than selling them - I admire this and it is a good objective indicator of quality.

    7, 9 and 11 folds etc normally do not serve a practical purpose - but again beauty is in the eye of the beholder.



    Diplomatic Ties,

    I love your tie photos (also your pocket squares) you look great and you would look comfortable in a classic movie. I could picture you sitting at the bar in a dinner jazz place waiting for someone to arrive at midnight.

    "But their position as probably the most influential tiemaker of the last decade or so is hard to overlook. Would we wear handrolled ties and madder fabrics to the same extent today without Drake's?"


    I respect your point of view but softly, gently and diplomatically I would suggest that Drakes has not had much influence on ties as most men have never heard of them and madder type styles have been around for a very long time and have never gone out of style. As for rolled edges Drakes is not very good at them and not so well known for them. Forums such as StyleForum have had more influence on rolled edges than Drakes.

    As for silk quality once you get to a certain level all the luxury tie makers use roughly equal quality silk - some will do small runs of silk which drives the price up a bit. There are really only a handful of silk weavers left that have 100+ years of experience and they are all good and sell to the same group of luxury companies.

    Cappelli is a mystery to me as I have seen very different construction qualities that they have made but their well made ties are equal to Kiton etc in construction. If you have objective reasons to say that Kiton or some other tie makers are better at construction than Cappelli at their best please let us know as I am very curious.

    Note I am not talking about a better brand name or elegant design just old fashioned construction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
  3. taxgenius

    taxgenius Senior member

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    ^ you mention the expensive printed silks used by Hermes; what about their construction. I have heard from friends that own many of them that they periodically need to be relined as they tend to twist. Is that a defect in construction or the choice of lining they use?
     
  4. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    Question: Is it ever a good idea to remove the lining from a tie? I have a nice tweed tie that I rarely wear because it is too thick for my liking, however I can't bring myself to throw it away because it is so nice otherwise. Can this, or should this, be attempted?
     
  5. TweedyProf

    TweedyProf Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    @sprout2

    I speak to Patrizio Cappelli directly about what I want, and at this point, I have a good relation with him, and I might dare to call him a friend. Indeed, I just trust him to deal with the fabric to achieve the effect that I want, which really is just a light and airy drape and an elegant knot. I have not ever had a problem with his ties, but I never go through the website. I'm curious about the deficiencies you've perceived (granted, even the best can fail to provide a satisfying product).

    @Sam Hober
    Thanks for your thoughts. My requirements are pretty small: I trust the maker and my relationship with them. I value beautiful fabrics, constructed in a way where they wear, to my mind, beautifully, and have, to my eye, the right details done with (again to my eye) appropriate care (e.g. the pattern alignment at the tip). Matters small in scale, but enough to provide genuine pleasure in life.

    @DiplomaticTies on the fold issue, I suspect that the request for multiple folds by the buyer doesn't add too much to the tie, quality wise, beyond the appreciation of the extra fabric. I've had three six-folds in my life, two from Borrelli which were excellent ties but not, I believe, due to the six-fold nature. They knotted well and the quality seemed high. I have a Vanda six-fold from Holland and Sherry cloth that I'm wearing today, and it is clear that the extra folds adds to the unique voluminousness of the tie. That was the maker's choice, but knowing them, an intentional one to create the effect where a three-fold would not.

    Edit: @Caustic Man David Hober would be the expert here but I don't see why not especially if you might discard the tie though you like the fabric. The Vanda mentioned above is, I believe, unlined, but holds a good knot. I've had Tiecrafters narrow ties (indeed the Borelli's I mentioned above) and they did a good job. Sprout2 had a different experience with them, I think. But if you like the fabric, I don't see the harm in trying.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2016
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  6. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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    The tiecrafters was a chop job, in fact in light of this conversation I've been gazing at it sadly in the closet.

    TweedyProf, not sure how you managed such a rapport or even linguistic fluency with EGC, seems you have some inside channel. For me it was always one-liner emails sent from his smartphone, very fast mind you, but left me at a loss as to how to go on beyond that point.
     
  7. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Tax Genius,

    Twisting is a defect in construction, if it twists when you first buy it. Part of making a luxury tie is during several different stages of construction holding the tie up and seeing if it twists, if it does you remake the tie.

    If it twists later (after wearing it) there may be for another reason - maybe TweedyProf's deconstruction would be needed to find the root cause.

    Hermes may use a light interlining for design reasons, they could like the look but it may not be the best for the tie.

    Your question is difficult to be clear about without an example to find the main issue that is causing the problem.

    Sort of like when doing tax research finding the issue can be a challenge and then subsequent research very straightforward at least it was always that way for me in the distant past - but I am not a tax genius - taxation is far harder for me then making ties...
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Mr. Six

    Mr. Six Senior member

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    You've probably read my thoughts in the Cappelli thread. I think most of the printed silks I have from him would be fine as a 3-fold with light interlining. I have a couple of 5 or 6-folds, which add some volume and are nice but would probably be about as nice as 3-folds. As TweedyProf suggests, you should just email Patrizio about the fabrics that interest you and let him tell you if he thinks any of them need a thicker lining or more folds to achieve what you want.

    I'm not sure that a completely unlined tweed tie is a good idea, but you could have the interlining changed to something lighter to reduce the bulk. It sounds like David will do that for you. (Which I didn't know until now, although he has made some adjustments to ties that I ordered from him. Great news, since I have a couple from other makers that I'd like to have modified.)
     
  9. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Caustic Man,

    Normally no but there are always exceptions and your case is the exception.

    So to answer your question, yes, it can be done and yes, you should try it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    Why not inlined for a tweed tie? Too much potential for stretching? Interesting to know that David will do that. Might have to inquire about it. I can already attest that David is a joy to work with. He is doing a special project for me at the moment (1st U.S. regiment tie). P.S. @Sam Hober , yup I'm the on who contacted you about the regimental tie!
     
  11. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Sprout2,

    Contact Andy the owner at Tiecrafters and tell him your thoughts he might surprise you.

    A long time ago I spoke with him and he explained to me how he does his tie alterations - he does a good job for the price but it is more expensive to remake a tie which is often what is needed.

    Remaking is totally taking a tie apart and using a new interlining as needed and changing the shape and length etc. then putting the tie back together.
     
  12. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    Full of confidence now. :)
     
  13. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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    I love StyleForum. This thread brings the wacky lulz.

    Discoveries made:
    • David Hober and I are both not tax geniuses (tax dunces?)
    • TweedyProf and the editor of the sleevehead blog carry pocket loupes they use to inspect the tip of ties in stores to make sure the pattern lines up
    • TweedyProf has developed an academic taxonomy that interweaves construction considerations with aesthetic hierarchies and applies these insights in a kind of clothing praxis every day, somehow managing to make it out of the door and to school on time even after hours of reasoned analysis
      • TweedyProf and Die Workwear may or may not have convened a conference in which they compared spreadsheets and clicked through 100-page PowerPoint slides on the way seams are stitched
    • DiplomaticTies has 500 Kiton ties collected from eBay, a collection only rivaling that of PTWilliams and his house-furnished-exclusively-through-eBay
    • Caustic Man and I are not alone in owning ties we do not wear and simply look at, or haven't the time to modify
    • Eric whats his name continues to excel at commenting in every thread with his opinion on items he hasn't bought but, he assures you, intends to buy. Runner-up for the Everything I Learned About Life I Learned from StyleForum award
     
    3 people like this.
  14. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Caustic man,

    Yes, I remember you and that opens a different subject which I really enjoy - history.

    I am inclined to do more military designs in the future.

    As for remaking ties apologies for any confusion but we don't normally offer that service for a number of reasons the chief one being that we have more fun making our own ties.

    We do at times remake our own ties. On occasion we will remake another makers ties everything is case by case. Actually that is how I am able to comment on the construction of other ties by opening them up.

    I don't see a stretching issue but the main point is that if you like a fabric and won't really wear it as is - go for it and see what happens. Maybe the end result will be perfect and maybe not but you won't end up worse off...
     
  15. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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    Thanks, I was planning to do 3 fold since I agree with you. Probably not needed to go for the 20 EUR rolled tip just to get the ligther lining if I can just request that in email.
    Well, there's that fool me once thing.
    I'd rather just blacklist when things don't work out after giving them the old college try and move on to giving my business to those that do first-rate work, i.e., you. I don't want to keep sacrificing my clothing babies to the volcano gods in hopes of them spewing out the intended manna blessings I seek.
     
  16. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Senior member

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    I hope you will do more military designs. Most of the U.S. military ties out there today are cheaply made and with bad fabrics. It really is too bad we don't have the same history of regimental ties that the Brits do, but that at least leaves much room to dabble in the subject.

    I will attempt the surgery on my tie and report back with my success, or failure.
     
  17. Mr. Six

    Mr. Six Senior member

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    TP definitely seems to have gotten the most detailed responses from Patrizio. But he has answered most of my questions, as long as I've been persistent, confirmed what I've wanted done, and asked him to send me a PayPal invoice.
    I would be concerned about the fabric pulling on itself internally while knotting it. It seems like some interlining would alleviate that friction. But it's also likely that I'm making up a non-existent concern.
     
  18. sprout2

    sprout2 Senior member

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    David, I know that tie makers (not "tiecrafters") do not like the prospect of offering the wholesale reconstruction of other makers' ties because it opens them up to the liability of not being able to restore the tie to the desired result of the customer, so better to stick to a policy of having full oversight of ties provided in house. However, I don't think this is necessarily always the best idea, especially if the brand image is not the foremost thing to protect. I don't consider the Sam Hober operation about the "brand" per se in terms of heavily branded ties, buy-in to the "Sam Hober" worldview and lifestyle, etc. As your own comments attest, your operation is about construction, construction, construction, and flexibility, and knowledge. I don't see why excellent remakes of ties that need love and TLC shouldn't be in that purview. You can see from this thread that there is burgeoning demand for that from the denizens of the forvm. I would buy hundreds more ties if I knew that I could give you business and have them made less wide and less thick. I pass on many ties that are well designed because I know the construction or sizing is bad.
     
  19. Sam Hober

    Sam Hober Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Sprout2,

    I have been in denial at my lack of tax skills and for some reason I thought I was smart enough to do everything by hand no software and CPA help.

    But now I have started buying Turbotax and I feel much better.

    I don't owe less money but I feel better - not sure why...

    Sprout2, I am very curious are you an advertising copywriter at your day job?
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. TweedyProf

    TweedyProf Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    @sprout2

    I do everything by eye. Pocket implements are for amateurs. Also: reasoned analysis, over time, leads to automatic, increasingly expert action. So, I'm only late now and then.

    Seriously: Why not post your hack job(s)? What went wrong? Would be fun to discuss.

    On communicating with Patrizio: I think patience and simple emails are easiest mostly because as good as his English is, there are limitations when one gets to technical matters. I keep requests simple, and if he's done a good tie for you, why not just work with that as your standard, the mean. He can deal with the variance appropriately. But again, do post a tie and why you are not satisfied with it. We can all learn by discussing it.
     

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