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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

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    That sounds right. And +1 on electric football. Remember how before Edison we had to play it like this?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  2. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    They're clearly connected. Kobe wants to play in a 90's era offense where he can ISO while everyone else watches and the Lakers theoretically built a team with that in mind. You think Kobe wants to win? No, he wants to be Kobe first and win second. Winning his way is his dream. Teams that ignore advanced stats will get victimized. The Lakers will not maximize their shitty talent - they'll exacerbate it with their style of play. You can pretty much guarantee that. Would it have mattered? Probably not. That was never going to be a playoff team in the West as constituted but at least they could have groomed some players for later success. As a Warriors fan, I look forward to hearing Kobe and his cabal call anyone who doesn't want to play with him his way a loser.

    You are right it probably wasn't fair for me to call people who ignore advanced stats traditionalists. The real traditionalists out there espouse offenses that actually were pretty efficient before the 3 point line and I think if you got rid of the three point line you'd probably see a return to the type of basketball people were playing in the 60's and 70's. The 3 point shot has changed the game for better or for worse and if you don't take advantage of it, you're going to lose.

    We will see how much Carmelo wants to win and how well he operates in a triangle offense. I don't think NY is institutionally hostile to modern basketball the way the Lakers are, but Carmelo is used to doing things a certain way and will need to adjust his game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  3. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Damn, where's Steve at to tell ya'll about his chariot races?
     
  4. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    fuck you guys, i remember when we used to play on peach baskets nailed to a pole (that's why they call it basket-ball, uh huh)
     
  5. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    Bball was invented by Canadians. pause
     
  6. foodguy

    foodguy Senior member

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    i realize it's pointless arguing with a kobe-hater. but i am going to point out that when he has a supporting cast, he shares the ball. when he has robert sacre, wesley johnson and carlos boozer, he's a lot more likely to jack up more shots.
     
  7. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    What are you.. like 100 years old?

    Bulls/Cavs in OT.
     
  8. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    Rose lasted all but two games....


    [​IMG]
     
  9. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    This is why it's true nobody wants to play with Kobe. After that play Lin must have been like "WTF did I get into getting traded here".





    For me, I snagged him in fantasy cheap, so Kobe needs to keep jacking them up. If it means the Lakers lose, side bonus. We all know the Lakers fans around here just start the rah rah for Team Balmer anyway.

    But... this was indeed impressive.



    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]





    Carmelo and Kobe are pretty much the same player, sure both want to win, but both want to be iso-ball hoggers that people don't really want to play with. Just think back to a game of pickup where inevitably one kid would sit there and dribble away and hog the ball, or some overweight guy would take 3 minutes trying to back someone down with his ass... next round of games, you didn't really want either of them on your team.

    While you can argue that both players do produce assists, and do show other metrics to indicate sharing, I think it's more a knock on effect of how much the ball is in their hands.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  10. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    One of the biggest issues I have with advanced stats and the people that use them (and not all of them fall into this category) is that they either don't know the game that well or don't watch a lot of it but simply look at stats and determine whether player A is this or that. A basketball team is a very complex ecosystem, where the action of each player effects his teammates performance moreso than any other team sport. Nothing happens in a vacuum and to simply state something like "teams should take more 3's than 2's" as the advanced stat community advocates ignores so many aspects of what makes teams and players successful. For me, the stretch 4, a direct product of this thinking, has been the biggest "mistake" in my lifetime of watching basketball.
     
    3 people like this.
  11. jet

    jet Senior member

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    he said ecosystem
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    Teams don't need to master analytics to win, but they do need to scout and play with in accordance with the principals that analytics have revealed. Assuming they want to win of course. Popovich used analytics to confirm his intuition that corner threes were efficient shots. You don't just end up with a "complex ecosystem" you have to build it, and it's become clear that analytics are a valuable tool in building a cast of complementary players, and then you use them to deploy the talent in the most effective way.
     
  13. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    And the funny thing is, Pop has gone on record as saying he hates the 3 but has to exploit its effectiveness if he wants the team to succeed. Enter Danny Green
     
  14. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    If you buy wholeheartedly into analytics and let it rule the way a team plays, it will probably fail. This goes for letting it rule personnel decisions too.

    Reminds me of a conversation in the investing thread about myopic, single minded thinking with investing. It applies with any complex ecosystem.
     
  15. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You like that shit, don't you


    I'm going to say that San Antonio's success over the last 15 years has more to do with Tim Duncan than probably anyone else.
     
  16. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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  17. Steve B.

    Steve B. Senior member

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    Of course Pop would say something like that. He presents a face to the public yet his greatness is undeniable.

    I'd agree with the comment about Duncan for the 1st half of the Dynasty; it's very arguably the Big 3 the last half. And Pop throughout.

    Danny Green will drive Fantasy owners nuts. Pop will play him only when he's hitting the 3 and he's a very streaky shooter.
     
  18. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    as a knicks fan, ed, i'm sure you realize that the knicks best season in the past 15 years happened mostly from tons of 3s coming off of lots of ball movement and carmelo being dominant at the 4.

    seriously this is the definition of straw man...can you name a single member of team management or even a single espn/yahoo/whatever analyst that does this? even if you think that people like me don't watch games (which is blatantly false), those people shouldn't matter at all to you because they don't affect the way a team is structured or strategy whatsoever.
    honest question: what is a big mistake about the stretch 4?
    the most successful teams in the last 5 years: spurs employed boris diaw as a stretch 4, the heat took off when they put in battier and james at the 4, serge ibaka is a great mid-range shooter, and dirk is the best-known stretch 4 in nba history.
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    You guys act like analytics is something that happens in a vacuum or is somehow exclusive. Analytics are used by teams and players to make better informed decisions. Not meant to replace coaching or scouting. It's clear that some teams should be smarter about how they use analytics. It's not clear that any team has failed due to relying too heavily, but I'm sure there will be examples. You can't take 5 low volume efficient scorers and expect to field a team.

    Teams are staffing up very aggressively in this area and the playing field will be level in a few years. Right now there are still some dinosaurs out there and they will underperform until they adapt or are forced into retirement. This goes for front offices, coaches and players.

    I understand why some of you are hostile to the analytics when it doesn't comport with yor thinking (I was that way in a few respects a few years ago) but the value is in how you adopt and apply the tools to your situation. It's not a one size fits all solution but ignoring data entirely is an instant failure.
     
  20. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    i don't really understand people who are anti-advanced stats...obviously you never want people who don't watch games and just look at stats...but those people just don't exist. this exists in football too, and pro-stats ppl there always just say: advanced stats are just more information. why would you willingly turn down more information that could be helpful to winning games? this doesn't need to be done at the expense of watching games.

    re: popovich
    of course duncan is the cornerstone of that franchise. but the spurs don't go ANYWHERE if they aren't one of the most innovative franchises in the league. take a look at the twolves, w/ garnett being probably almost as good as duncan, and never making it anywhere there. the spurs were the 1st ones to tap into international markets, and they have a huge stats department. they were the first ones to realize the efficiencies of a corner 3, and they're the 1st ones to realize the benefits of resting players during the regular season. all of that stuff goes hand in hand with being open to advanced stats.
     

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