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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    yea man if you're focused on just the blame for the last play then i don't know what game you were watching
     
  2. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Well if you're really going to take the running gag on Westbrook seriously then I don't know what to tell you.

    The fact is Westbrook has a history of doing that and that is why it is a joke but I ask you, who do you want taking your last show? A contested running jumpshot from Russy or from a wide open MVP who had 40pts and shot 50% from the field?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  3. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    Oh, I didn't know (and still don't???) if you were being serious that the loss was Russ' fault. Obv ppl on Twitter go fucking crazy criticizing RW. I think it hardly is. He might be 2nd on the list, but he's way down there below Brooks.

    Yea I'm not saying he shouldn't have passed to KD on the last shot, I think he should have. I paused it and pointed out while watching at home that Durant was open. But it's not like he's Josh Smith and Durant had a guaranteed bucket. He's hit game-winning 3s before, was guarded by Collison (hardly contested) and Durant was 1/7 from 3 pt land and would have been much less open if Westbrook actually passed it there. It's not an irresponsible decision.

    But I don't think that last shot really matters that much in the big scheme of things. As in: if he passes to KD and KD wins the game, are the greater issues of the team really solved? I say not at all. Therefore I don't think it's Westbrook's fault they lost.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  4. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    You're taking everything too damn serious. No the loss isn't all on Russy but do I think he played a bigger part in it than everyone else? Hell yes!

    I disagree with your point on KD, Russy was 1-4 behind the arc and KD was being guarded by CP3 who gives up a good 9"-10" and was about 8 feet away.

    If Russy made that pass and KD won the game, then part of the problem is solved, Russy being a ballhog. If KD misses, part of the problem is solved, Russy being a ballhog. What is the biggest criticism on him and in part Brooks coaching? Letting Russy run with the ball while the MVP, who gives you the best chance at winning, doesn't have the chance to shoot in the last second. KD is to blame for not asking for the ball too, he's too timid at times but it's more difficult to be aggressive in asking for the ball when the other dude is too stubborn and in that event Russy should know better as a PG, survey the damn court. At the end of the day, it's no different than Lebron passing the ball instead of shooting it, would you rather your best player win or lose the game for you or someone else? Would your opponent prefer someone else beat you other than your MVP?

    I get it Russy hit game winners before but how many had KD hit himself? I have no numbers right now (indesertum?) but I am confident he has far exceeded Russys number in that regard.

    I mean yeah they blew a 22 pts lead but again you want your best chance at winning the game and Russy throwing up that shot wasn't it. The loss was a team effort but beyond the ridiculous overreaction on Russy, there is a reason behind it and a valid one at that. How do you think KD won MVP, it was because Russy went down and it allowed KD to actually play to his greatest potential.
     
  5. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    Haha I'm not taking anything crazy serious, I'm prob not expressing that clearly tho. I laugh about more basketball shit than anything else, maybe.

    Also man I agree w/ you that Russ shoulda taken passed and Durant shoulda taken the shot, I said as much above. I just don't think it's that worthy of criticism. Like Westbrook taking the last shot isn't Donyell Marshall or Larry Hughes or whoever the f. But your point about LBJ is a little bit odd given that Bosh has taken numerous game-tying/game-winning shots and made them.

    Altogether I think you're pretty off-base about Russ being more responsible for the loss than anyone else. Russ gets crazy criticism, certainly some of it warranted. But this loss falls pretty damn clearly on Brooks, and even Twitter thinks as much. Brooks almost couldn't call a single thing that wasn't KD at the high post calling for the ball w/ 10 secs on the shot clock while being doubled. Westbrook passed the ball to him numerous times in this "set" in the 4th and things very rarely worked out for OKC (only time I can remember off the top of my head is KD's rip-through move on Paul, where he made 1 FT). I don't really get how you can call him a ballhog this game, except for the last shot.

    Besides Brooks did the dumbest fucking thing ever in not fouling the last possession. Insanely lucky it worked out for them (didn't even really work out, given that KD didn't get the ball).

    Also not sure what your point about KD being MVP was...you're not seriously arguing OKC is better w/o RW, are you? If no, then who cares about KD being MVP w/o Russ on the floor?
     
  6. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    Watching it live, you just knew Russ was gonna pull it up for a 3 to try to win that game. No way he was going to pass to Durant or try to force overtime. That's just how he do

    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Yes but look at his Cleveland days and before Bosh hits those clutch 3s or Ray. Seriously go back and look at the database and articles of Lebron being clutch and passing the ball, it's everywhere. I am not sure how you do not see my point that your best bet at winning is at the hands of your superstar and Lebron did not get those criticisma way until he actually became clutch and took his shots and made them. Back then even when his teammate made the shot, the criticism was still "there's Lebron scared of the moment, passing the ball again!". After you are out of that rut and proved yourself then your decisions to pass looks better, did Bosh's shots came from Lebrons pass? Did Kerrs game winning J for the chip came from Jordans pass? That's just how it is, Russy not passing has been a problem and I know it seems like I am knocking him but look back in this thread season after season, I am the only one defending Russy to stay with Durant but now you see that Jackson, a true PG, might just be better with Durant than Russy.




    It's not just this game, did I say it's just this game? It;s whole career and it's been a criticism of him from the start. I mean how many articles and bitching has there been that OKC lost because Russy took more shots than KD had points? It's a recurring problem and Russy may not do it for the spant for 48 minutes on the court but all it takes is that one shot where he goes back to him wanting to play hero ball and it could cost them the series. It seriously can, again we both agree that we rather see KD lose that game than Russy.



    My point is that with Russy out of the way, KD played better and actually had his shots. I think their record was better w/o Russy this year though. Not fully convinced OKC is better without Russy but if they traded him for another scorer and let Jackson run the point, I think they'll be better off, yes. I mean we all saw how they struggled when Russy went down last year but Russy just hasn't changed and he has to for them to win and Jackson has played spectacular in Russys absence (similar to Blakes emergence when CP3 went down).

    And I've already mentioned Brooks, dude can't let go of his old players and I swear Fisher has a contract to let him play in every game if he is healthy because Brooks just can't let dude sit.

    I still believe they would have lost game 7 had Randolph not been suspended.

    Again, Russy could play well all night long but in that one key moment where he gets a lapse that will bite him in the ass and that's exactly what happened tonight.


    But whatever, you've taken a funny joke and dragged it to the mud. I'm for the Clippers winning so for all I care, Westbrook can Westbrook as much as he wants.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  8. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    I feel bad for Wiz fans. There's little chance Wittman is gonna get fired now, right? He almost certainly deserves as much (dude has literally the worst coaching winning % of all time, min 400 games [Wittman has coached 520, .367%]) and they should be at the very least tied in this series.

    Are they pretty much resigned to paying Gortat now? He's not gonna be cheap, and then Ariza is a FA too I believe, and is talking about signing mostly (solely?) for money.
     
  9. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    Uh? I do see your point, I said Russ shoulda passed it. Not sure how many times I have to say that at this pt.
    I always thought that criticism of LBJ passing in the clutch was dumb.
    Well we've only been talking about this game, you've only mentioned this game, and this started cuz you were talkin bout Westbrook at the end of this game, so how am I supposed to know you're referring to his whole career.
    I think it's pretty hyperbolic to say his one instance of hero ball (not disagreeing w/ u) could cost them the series. Plenty of ppl make mistakes, but RW's get magnified. KD had 4 TOs in the 4th and he let Collison leak out for a ridic layup w/ 30 secs left.
    RW is one of the top 10 players in the league, I think it's highly unlikely that the team could improve if he gets traded.
    OKC record w/o Russ this year is super unreliable given that he played poorly when he was recovering from injury and got way better since.
    Do you know Westbrook's assist % this season? 40.2%. That's 5th in the league, behind Paul/Rondo/Marshall/Wall. Reggie Jackson's? 23.1%. Westbrook's way more a pass-first PG than Jackson. Surprising, huh?
    Brooks :rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Do you think the fact that you emphasize Russ's one lapse over that whole game says more about him as a player or you as a basketball fan?
    :/ It's pretty obvious I need to actually debate less on this thread. I wanted to discuss NBA and try to change some perceptions but the thread is 90% half-jokes and stream of consciousness. That's great in and of itself, just something I should re-calibrate on. shrug.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2014
  10. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    If you agree RW should have passed then why keep defending him? I said their best chance is with KD taking the shot and you agreed but still has something else to say? I agreed RW isn't all to blame but you have something else to disagree with? And me thinking/believing he has more to blame because of that one lapse is valid to me, it' snot valid to you, ok then! Savvy? Just when you thought he has changed then he reverts back to it, this happens every season and again I was a big supporter of him for years and years and this year, it just feels like dude is just trolling (I know he isn't before you take that more serious than it is) but again KD not demanding the ball is also at fault. Russ missed the shot so obviously the criticism is on him since he isn't the MVP or the team biggest star.


    It's not dumb, it has validity. Every time you lose because you passed up a shot and you happen to be the best player of the team, then yes that falls on your shoulders and you'll get blamed and criticized.


    I guess you missed this post or just decided to ignored it completely?

    You're also emphasizing too much on that one instance and for the most part, it was a joke. I do not know how many times I have to say this, hell I didn't even know it had to be said.

    And you are still arguing so even though you keep saying you don't disagree make no damn sense. If you agree then there is no argument. It's also stupid to say "plenty makes mistakes but RW gets magnified" as if it isn't valid. Shit is the same complain for years now and nothing has changed, what the hell do you expect? KD is getting better and better and RW prevents him from shooting the ball. Again when he takes more fg attempts than KD has points, then there is a problem but let me guess, you don't disagree but you'll say something else that disagrees anyways?



     
  11. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Alright after a quick workout and got some adrenaline and endorphine pumping, I got to apologize to Brothersport, calling him "baby idfnl" is out of line.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    ^ Where are you that you're working out at this hour? I could have sworn you were in the US.
     
  13. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    I am, in Cali, it's a midnight workout in my home. Was busy the whole day being a Mothers day then theres the games and then GoT and Penny Dreadful.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
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  14. Brothersport

    Brothersport Senior member

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh: That's pretty awesome.
    I'm sorry you got aggravated, I'm really not trolling here. Believe it or not I"m totally up for actual substantive discussion bout the NBA.
    It mostly comes down to...I understand where you're coming from but I think he gets an unfair amount of criticism.
    The analysts I follow (e.g. Zach Lowe, Haralabos Voulgaris) also I believe honestly understand more about basketball and are less reactionary, and I think they would agree w/ what I said about RW. Westbrook is just one of those players where it seems like his flaws can be fixed much more easily, whether or not that's actually gonna happen. I think that skews ppl to think he's worse for the team than he actually is.
    It's like...when Wade and LBJ were not flowin great in their first year they mainly required a better system, which falls on their coach. It would have been a rash decision to get rid of Wade for taking too many shots. I don't see too many reasons that this should be different. Westbrook being a PG, to me, doesn't really mean the situation should be too different.
    I'm not gonna keep this up and go thru your post (where you had some good points) unless you wanna keep it up by PM or something.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  15. foodguy

    foodguy Senior member

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    as a clips fan (albeit fairly newly minted), i have to say that i hated every time westbrook touched the ball -- he made hash of collison that whole fourth quarter. you can focus on that last shot, but how many full-court drives to the basket did he make? i hate the guy, too, but gotta give credit where it's due. and i thought cp3 did a terrific job on durant in the last 8 minutes or so. nobody's going to stop that guy, he's phenomenal. but he made him uncomfortable enough that it took him out of some of his shots. despite what would conservatively be a 9-inch difference in height (and that's not including wingspan).
     
  16. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    i didn't read everything (wall of text dear mother of god), but i somewhat agree with brothersport. westbrook is a problem, not the problem. the problem is the terrible offensive sets brooks has the thunders doing. west brook's last non pass isn't a big factor in the big scheme of things. sure yeah you should probably get the ball to the best shooter on the court/world, but if you're a pretty good shooter yourself defended by a guy a lot smaller than you quite a bit away i don't think it's a terrible decision to shoot it yourself.

    i think they just need to work with westbrook over the summer to try and get him to understand which shots are higher value than others. which is a really tricky line and hard to learn but with these sports vu cameras i think they can do quite a bit

    i dont understand how KD couldn't take advantage of CP3. doc rivers talked about it a little saying their goal was to get KD to post up instead of shooting or driving which he's better at
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  17. foodguy

    foodguy Senior member

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    some of the replays, when nobody was looking, cp3 was grabbing and holding him and generally staying right underneath him where he couldn't move his legs easily and was always a little off balance. shut him right down. only got 40 points. that is one amazing shooter. does westbrook remind anyone else a little of derrick rose?
     
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  18. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    more of a young kobe for me. he didn't come into the league with as good as shooting form as kobe, but he's worked on it. and WB averages 80%+ from the FT line.

    he reminds me of young kobe in the sense that his hero ball mentality is almost at par with his actual talent so its something you may actually never want to give up (hence the fact that he'll probably never be traded until there's a massive flame up with personality clashes with durant).

    it would be fascinating to see him in a derrick rose type of situation where he really was the 1st option alpha dog volume shooter though.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  19. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

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    I'm reminded of the story about Phil Jackson being asked why he didn't reign in a young Kobe who had just missed an ill-advised shot or several. Jackson supposedly said that Kobe's next-level aggressiveness was the thing that really set him apart, and that he'd live with the excesses rather than risk taking that away.
     
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  20. foodguy

    foodguy Senior member

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    interesting. i can see mentally how he is more like a young kobe. physically, and as far as his floor game is concerned, i don't think kobe ever had that kind of speed and i don't remember him relishing contact the way westbrook seems to.
     

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