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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Wow, Rockets just gave away the game with that defense.
     
  2. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    Playoff basketball always has it surprises and WTF moments but this year is shaping up to look especially jarring.. damn
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
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  3. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    ^ crazy. HOU is down 0-2.
     
  4. SirGrotius

    SirGrotius Senior member

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    This year is looking crazier than most:


    • Howard looks like he's going to be embarrassed in Houston; it always seems they'll be lucky to win one, I know that's crazy but the Blazers just seem better
    • I think the Clips will win, but I'm not even 75% sure
    • I think the Mavs have a chance
    • Wiz win easily, surprisingly
    • I think the Pacers sneak out a win, but again, may even be 50/50 for a top-seeded team
    • Raptors - Nets -- don't know?
     
  5. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    you'd have to define and differentiate between what "small ball" and "fast paced" offense is.

    Pat Reily has stated in the past that his ideal team consists of skilled guys all around the 6'9" range. That means the whole team if possible. I remember borrowing from the library books about Magic Johnson and Riley when I was in middle school and swear there was a quote that said riley ideally wanted a team of skilled guys all around 6'9".

    my guess is that he came up with the theory after playing those celtics and rockets teams in the 80's (which had tall front courts). "show time" lakers success in the 80's proved to be successful.

    the modern analytic's heavy teams trend is avoid offensive rebounding altogether now - which has been happening since late aughts' with the spurs and 2008 celtics being the most blatant success employing that tactic.

    so what happens when you avoid offensive rebounds, but conversely focus even more so on defensive rebounds? the transition game gets boosted to the point where older teams such as the pre 2013-14 celtics, and spurs are near to the top of the league in transition/fast break points. so even though it sound counter intuitive - being a transition team/small ball team is actually easier on the body (especially for teams with all-star big men who are older).

    what we are seeing now is a hybrid type of system. (golden state, spurs, and heat) where they play tenacious defense but almost go immediately into transition fast break offense if possible with efficient offensive players/sets (shooting a great shot quickly rather than later).

    which leads back to d'antoni. i think he figured it out towards the end (that duh you need to play defense to win) but fast paced transition offense is extremely effective (points per possession wise), but the other teams caught on and sucked up all the ideal players for it (the sean marions, stepen curry's, boris diaw, ect ).
     
  6. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't watch the second half of Houston/Portland but in the first half, didn't Howard put up like 20 shots and he was beasting (as was Aldridge). Howard ended the game witth 25 shots :confused: Was he in foul trouble or did Portland start doubling/tripling him? Jones can't guard LA and Asik is also useless against this Portland team. I think Houston will have to go indesertum small, put Garcia on Aldridge to try and stay with him outside and take away his jumper, force him to drive and funnel him in to Howard with a double team. Easier said then done as you can't double with Liliards guy as he will then go off but what they are doing now is not working. Lin led Houston in assists and he only played 20 minutes, a Portland sweep might put McHale on the hot seat but he was kinda screwed when they stuck him with Asik, a valuable trade piece that they could have shored up their defense/bench with. Now they have a good offensive team (when Harden isn't putting up 30 shots or dribbling the ball for 20 seconds) but no perimeter defense at all other than Beverly and he is short, can't really guard/double 2's and 3's.
     
  7. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    SWAAAGGGY!

    [​IMG]

     
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  8. jet

    jet Senior member

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    :lol:
     
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  9. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    Riley's Laker teams were looking for shots within about 7 seconds after crossing half court. Perhaps those 80's teams were an influence on the modern take, but the idea that usually your best shot happens early in the shot clock is not new.

    That article on offensive rebounding was interesting. I guess its about personnel too. If you have a Rodman, or a Moses Malone and even to a lesser extent a Tyson Chandler, you'd want to take advantage of their knack for it. My takeaway is that a team needs to be smart and use discipline so that guys don't crash the glass chasing stats at the expense of easy points on the other end of the floor. Miami has feasted on this breakdown for a few years now and it helps explain why Indiana was so successful against them last year.
     
  10. foodguy

    foodguy Senior member

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    really interesting ideas.
    i haven't done the statistical analysis (because i hate math), but as a guy who has been watching for a long time, I wonder how much of it is just the evolution of the modern center (did someone already make that argument?). you rarely see an old-school back-it-in low post offense these days. does this go back to the triangle? when even shaq -- maybe the best pounder-5 in recent times -- often initiated the offense from teh high post before going low? i don't remember even kareem - who was a really skilled big man for his time -- doing that.
     
  11. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    you know in the 80's (houston/boston/LA) they all actually had super athletic freak bigmen. i think kevin mchale was probably the only true "black hole" type of big man.

    parish/olijawan/kareem could all run the floor extremely well. ralph sampson was the freakiest of them all as a 7 foot point forward who could run the floor and guard like handle.

    to swing it back to the 80's even the Bad Boy Pistons finally won when they traded Adrien Dantley (who was excellent at low post moves/scoring reminiscent of carmelo anthony, but clogged the offense and needed touches).
     
  12. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    For some reason we just don't see guys come in who are built for the old school center mold. Right now, we have Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph who are straight up old school. LA probably is the next with the physical gifts + skills, but he's chosen to be a jump shooter/stretch. That's it.

    Dwight doesn't count because he's been drilled as a post player for almost a decade and he's still a doof. Maybe Blake at some point can't dunk over people and decides to become a load in the post, or one of these stiffs like Kanter suddenly gets it together but they don't look super strong or particularly agile
     
  13. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    Blake and Dwight do have a pretty good post game tho. Dwight is like a third of the rockets points and he gets like 60%

    I loled at indesertum small

    Also the nets right now are basically the Larry-Riley 6' 9" or taller (I think more like 6' 7"). No 1 turnover generating defense since January
     
  14. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    just watching 1min of this videos give's me giggles... its safe to say even with the modern analytic's based defensive schemes you couldn't stop McHale:

    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]

    sometimes McHale even pivots right into multiple defenders, :lol: and its basically McHale vs 3 defenders and it still doesn't matter. Its all about his height, footwork, and timing.


    ^who probably benefited the most from emulating the big men of the 80's? Kobe Bryant, who co-opted the footwork and up and under moves, but modified it to where he'd create space for a mid range shot.

    hell it seems like mostly wing players these days who are using the footwork and up and under moves: Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson (both old guys on their way out), James Harden ect. Carmelo sometimes will start with it, but he mostly pulls up instead of stepping inside for a easier shot.

    Duncan is the last big man doing it, but there is hope in Anthony Davis, because he has such great footwork and already has great FT shooting %, and his ability to learn and apply what he learned I wouldn't be surprised if Unibrow averages 30pts next year using big man moves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
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  15. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    You forgot Tim Duncan and David Lee (though he jump shoots a lot).

    I think its what they're also being asked to do. David West can bang. Taj Gibson, Kenneth Faried, Anthony Davis all have the potential to develop those moves. Greg Monroe too. But if its not a valued skill set anymore, why bother to train with Hakeem in the summer?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  16. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Uh, Stoudamire's game is now 80% back to the basket. I know everyone has written him off, but he had a monster March/April, playing limited minutes in an offense that almost never featured him. He spent I think the last two summers with Hakeem.
     
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  17. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    Shit, I did forget about Tim Duncan. Amare, though? Maybe he'll get there but he's not effective enough to be in the convo yet. I do remember Barkley saying this when he learned Amare was working with Hakeem to develop a post game - "13 years in the league as a PF/C, and you're developing a post game just now?!" :lol:
     
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  18. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    yeah, but there's always been power forwards that had no post up game (Oakley, Mahorn, Buck Williams etc). I don't blame STATS, I blame D'Antoni, he would never allow a player to develop a low post game. Also, I think given current style preferences in basketball, any big 16-17 year old kid getting ready to go to Division 1 will be pushed into the stretch 4 mold rather than a Charles Barkley mold. STATS has developed a really effective low post game, when you think about the injury issues he's had, its admirable that he has improved his game rather than just stick with what he knew.
     
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  19. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    Ya, this was sorta my point a few posts back, the trickle down here is for guys to develop in ways that are not necessarily their strengths. I think there is still plenty of room for post up ball in the NCAA but why would a blue chipper develop it if the NBA won't value it in workouts whey put the 6' 10" guy 20 feet out? If he starts clanging, smash cut to the middle of the 2nd round, or worse, the Greek league.

    Strangely, it still seems valued when a 2 or 3 can back someone down, and Lebron seems to value it, but for the traditional post up play from a 4 and 5, its always claimed that it grinds the offense to a halt. I don't really recall the Hakeem years having offenses grind to a halt, nor does that happen with Duncan in SA. But fuck man, when Hibbert starts to post up, the whole game seems to turn into slow motion.

    Curios, I'm no expert in the Triangle, but does it accommodate post up play? Or was Shaq an anomaly within it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  20. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    Fair enough, and I agree. The development argument has always been a chicken and egg situation for me - do players adapt because of system, or vice versa? No denying stretch 4's are being drafted higher now (even those that can't rebound), but on the other side you have entire offenses being designed around the aforementioned Al Jefferson. Even more ironically, the Heat realized that their 3 was their best post up player, so they drew all of their bigs to the perimeter to create space.

    I'm not too close to AAU and college coaching, so I don't have an informed opinion on this
     

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