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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. rnoldh

    rnoldh Senior member

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    I thought this thread was about NBA basketball.

    And the Rockets are finally good again :satisfied:
     
  2. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    ^^^ It is, and I apologize in advance for the length of this, but the way members are treated in this thread needs addressing.
    _________


    Indesertum, since you presented some substance, I’ll dissect your post.


    Oh really?? This is one month old:


    To my point about social status… why wasn’t this post questioned? I know why. Clearly this post is in line with my comments. I wonder why I was attacked and this well regarded member wasn’t? There are more like this that were never Mafia’d like I was.


    I have to be careful around the Fact Check Mafia. I thought the hand check was banned in the mid 90’s. If you look here, scoring has been on the rise since around ’00 which is when hand checking was actually banned. Objectively you see the trend line clearly moving up. So, in fact, scoring has steadily been on the rise, and yes, an argument can be made its getting easier and easier.

    [​IMG]




    Someone commented on how incredible LeBron’s performance was. I disagreed. Neither party was trolling. I never said LeBron was terrible.


    And that’s when I clarified so people understood it LOOKED easier. Had anyone shown respect, they would have said “oh, I get what he’s saying now”.


    Calm the hyperbole. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s Lord of the Flies in practice. Look at the posts above which garnered no push-back and compare it to my treatment. My point is proven.


    I have nothing against you or anyone on this thread save for Neo and Jet who dog me with every post I make. Look how stupid Neo looks above. I’m rather curious how that outing will be received, because its clear evidence he has no interest in the quality of this thread, just his social standing within it by targeting me.



    You’re dead wrong, though this is not the thread to debate it.



    Do I now? This post was directed at me from one of the elites on this forum. He just loves keeping people squashed. I might have in fact developed social standing in that thread if it were not for this members endless harassment of me there. But perhaps you experience it differently. I don't take him personally, because I know he's just a bully.

     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  3. ethanm

    ethanm Senior member

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    أرض العزم
    Hipocratic
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    this


    and this. jfc.
     
  5. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    NBA is clearly now more high octane offense. That still isn't the same as your outrageous statement about lebron's efficiency actually being terrible (playground like or whatever you said) because of the more high octane offense.

    clearly some of us (ed and lawrence and you) think the old days were better, but nobody has made the unbelievable claims you have

    you've just said exactly what i said in the post you quoted. yes scoring's been on the rise since since '98 to 2009 but YOUR ORIGINAL POST SAID SCORING"S BEEN ON THE RISE SINCE '93 WHICH IS BLATANTLY FALSE. 1993 and 1998 are different years. they're different numbers

    here's your same chart with an arrow from 1993 to 2012

    [​IMG]

    clearly downwards

    why're you constantly changing things so it makes it seems like you've always been right?

    just so you know scoring averages have declined since 2009 and nba offenses have been much more high octane now than in 2009. in 2009 you didn't have go go 3 balls like we have today. in 2009 nobody was complaining nba offense was too high octane.

    it's not about respect. you made two totally different statements. the first was lebron's efficiency is terrible. the second was lebron's efficiency looks to me like it's terrible. those are two totally different statements. the first you presented as an objective assertion. the second is a subjective opinion. it's not simply a clarification. you totally moved the goal posts

    like i said nobody goes to the extreme of making the statements you make with little evidence to prove it. ed said that the nba has more high octane offense (which is true. there's a ton more threes and if you look at teams like the phoenix suns and houston rockets they're very go go push the ball up). your claim is basically that the nba offense is so high octane that lebron's scoring efficiency is actually terrible even when he gets like 60% fgp against the league best defense pacers.

    it's not because ed has better standing and you don't. it's because nobody quite makes contrarian statements like you and have little evidence for it

    and you shouldn't take him personally. that's just his schtick. he's a dick to everybody and he calls it like he sees it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  6. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    I don't think the past NBA is better than today game. I hated those 90's knicks teams that manhandled jordan.

    but its weird how younger generations can make assumptions that this present league is more athletic than the past. and how the "modern" game is superior. i'm nearing my mid 30's so I still had a chance to see bird/magic/thomas play towards the mid-late 80's (granted I was little, but my dad and I watched both the celtics when we lived in rhode island and boston and a lot of the lakers when we moved to orange county CA in the late 80's). i was in my teens and 20's into the jordan/duncan/kobe era, and now can totally appreciate the modern game (because of all around stars like Lebron - which is so refreshing compared to ball dominant score first 2 guards that dominated for two generations of jordan and kobe).

    sure if a game is in its infancy like 10 caucasian guys doing two handed set shots towards a peach basket there's going to be a large gap. but the NBA (just like the MLB and boxing) has had its modernization relatively early and progress has been incremental as integration of other races and nations players have filter into the game.

    by the late 1970's the NBA game pretty much turned into what you see today. its hard to admit, and I didn't even believe it until i did some review of past games from the late 70's. but these guys ran just as fast and jumped just as high. the dunks were fewer because honestly you could be put on your back for trying to dunk even up to the 90's. i don't think lebron and blake griffin would be doing alley oops as much if lets say rick mahorn could just slam you onto the ground and not even be ejected for it.


    here's a breakdown of the 1977 finals between the blazers and 76ers:

    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]

    fast forward to the 2:15 mark and you can see these players are just as fast and play up tempo just as much as todays game.


    go to 2:15 to see Dr. J do a dunk running at full speed and contested that would melt the inter webs if done today

    go to 2:37 to see an even better Dr. j dunk contested and in transition


    the way the blazers played reminds me a lot of the spurs teams - especially last years spurs team. where they have a center (duncan) who is basically an anchor because of his all around game - passing, scoring, defense, and spacing. make no mistake, the plays the blazers are executing are the highest level of basketball. things that are still done today (some would argue not as effectively too).

    I don't think I'm crazy to think that that 1977 blazers team could compete in today's nba. just like the 86 celtics or 87 lakers, or 1990 pistons, or any of the 90's jordan teams could.

    its like track and field. sure jessie owens is probably "slower" compared to modern runners in the 100m. but only marginally incrementally so. if you put usain bolt back in the past using leather cleats running on sandy asphalt, or transported jessie owens to present day and trained him properly with modern techniques and used modern kits the differences would be marginal.

    what I do think is happening is that the analytics are making todays game and near future teams more efficient. and the application of the modern analytics are going make another mini-leap in the game, kind of like what happened to baseball in the late 90's to today.

    it really started to happen in the 2011 finals where cuban/carlise and company used advanced analytics(and the heat's insistence not to adjust) to win the finals against that miami super team. miami has adjusted accordingly afterwards and won in 2012, 2013 no doubt because they jumped onto the analytic bandwagon (they clearly are using the stats now).

    so the new leap for nba players with the use of analytics? how about players like steph curry? steve nash-like on the surface, but with even deeper shooting range, not afraid to take contested 3pt shots from 27feet (because of his quick release it looks more contested than it actually is), where curry can have a line of 30+ pts, 5 3pt shots, and also have 10+ assists. so how to teams like the warriors compete? by using billy bean like angles in figuring out how to play defense with stiffs like david lee and curry. lol

    so probably in the next 3-10 years there's going to be a true leap in team play with the integration of analytics and importance of NBA front offices.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
    2 people like this.
  7. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    Lawrence, when you brought up the 2011 Mavs (personally one of my fav teams to have watched), it reminded me of the time Mark Cuban went on ESPN and basically explained the analytics approach he used to the dumbfounded Skip Bayless. :laugh:

    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  8. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    whats sad is how stephen A smith's excuse for not covering the analytics angle of the 2011 finals was: I'm really busy and don't have time to look up all the numbers!

    what the fuck you lazy bastard. just fucking click true hoop on your own motherfucking espn website and they will give you the analytics slant in 3 seconds. or how about calling up the guys from true hoop who are your fucking co-workers and asking for some help.

    if the fucking owner/GM/coachingstaff and players of the mavericks can study and understand the numbers and still give interviews to the media then talking heads can spend 10min to learn the basics and just take the ignorance stance against analytics.

    bayless is paid to be a jackass and be deliberately argumentative, so he's just doing work, its stephen a. smith that tries to be the booming voice of reason - which is so fucking baseless if you don't include the analytics angle into account.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
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  9. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    about fast paced older teams

    jeff hornacek (head coach of the suns) was talking about how he devised the current suns to be similar to the old phoenix (http://www.nba.com/suns/news/bledsoe-dragic-proving-lethal-fast-break-game). not the d'antoni phoenix but the suns when him and kevin johnson were playing dual point guards in a go go style similar to what the suns are doing today. they relied a lot on fast breaks and pushing up the ball quickly, but with less 3s (as typical of the era). i watched what i could find on youtube and it was actually quite fun

    anyways i was too young to even watch a jordan game live. i think i caught the tail end of his career with the wizards.

    the suns might be the funnest team to watch right now alongside the blazers and the warriors

    i've watched that video like 5 times now and every time it amazes me how much bullshitting the two idiots can go on about
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  10. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    One man's unbelievable claim is another man's social standing. I was scrutinized for basically saying the same thing as Ed.

    ---------------------



    False. Scoring so far this season (as of yesterday) is higher than 2009 at 100.8 PPG. And anyone can see by that graph that since hand check was outlawed the trend is up. If we add this season to that graph, the upward trend is further emphasized. Clearly upward trend:

    [​IMG]

    ---------------------



    I never said it was terrible. I said it was too easy/practice court:


    ---------------------



    This is what I said:


    This is what Ed said:


    I fail to understand how anyone would characterize us as saying 2 completely different things. Yet one member gets scrutiny from the Fact Check Mafia and the other does not.

    I've made a clearly reasoned argument that some members get more scrutiny here than others, are trolled, fact checked, not given bandwidth for clarification, and climbed all over for petty perfect wording violations. These tactics are for the purposes of emphasizing their own social standing and enforcing a childish social pecking order rather than create camaraderie among people that share a common interest in the NBA.

    For the sake of everyone here that doesn't want to read any more of this boring shit, I won't respond any further on this issue. Indesertum, thanks for being respectful.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  11. AldenPyle

    AldenPyle Senior member

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    I like this post and mostly agree but


    • Basketball players are definitely a lot biffer, than they were 30 years ago. I bet the average guy on the Miami Heat spends more time in the weight room than all of the 77 Blazers combined (including Maurice Lucas).
    • The stuff about people getting hammered for dunking is more the 60s than the 80s. There were plenty of dunks in the era of Clyde Drexler and Dominique Wilkins.
    • Defense wasnt that physical in the 80s, at least until the era of the Pistons which was why scoring was so high. My recollection is that fans really enjoyed physical D at the outset (and MJ was himself a very physical defender). The problem came when it got so that the every team was running isolation plays everytime down the court just to get some space.
    • Scoring is still low because of zone defenses. I like it more than 90s ball, because teams have to pass a lot to beat the zone and you can get some pretty stuff if they succeed. But the 80s might have been more fun.
     
  12. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    The analytics movement has also had a profound effect on the defensive side of the ball, which is why defensive efficiency is up around the league, and the great offensive analytics teams like the Mavs, Rockets, Spurs and Heat aren't just scoring on teams at will. For every Morey on the offensive side, there's a Thibodeau or Doc Rivers on the defensive side (to be fair, Morey is more than capable on the defensive analytic side as well). Steve Clifford, the Bobcats rookie coach that gave up Lebron's 61 point game, took his team from worst in the league to seventh in defensive efficiency.

    In response to Larry's point, I'm not ready to say that today's teams are better than those of 20 years ago, but I do think they're definitely smarter
     
  13. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    I think the same thing happened to them that happened to me: they were shocked at how well informed Mark Cuban was. That interview completely changed my views on him, I was impressed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  14. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    look nobody came down on you or gave you shit when you said that guys score a lot these days because not a lot of teams play good defense

    people came down on you when you said lebron's 22-23 isn't efficiency. there's a difference in those two statements. the latter is much more extreme than the former. how is this so difficult to understand


    i don't understand how an intelligent person can be so selectively blind. i even drew an arrow on the graph for you

    this is what you confidently said


    in fact you were so confident you said it twice


    and then people pointed out that actually no that's not true

    this is what you changed your statement to


    you didn't even mention hand checking until somebody pointed that out

    do you understand that there is a difference between the numbers '93 and '00? that's a seven year difference. you made two totally separate claims (which i had already pre-empted earlier in the quote you quoted yourself

     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  15. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    Great game. Almost as good as when the Bulls broke the Heat streak last year
     
  16. Bhowie

    Bhowie Senior member

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    Why didn't you guys tell me their was a great cat fight in this thread?
     
  17. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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  18. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    Love the url name :lol:
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    :nodding:

    Lakers gonna have a looooong afternoon.
     
  20. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Westbrooks gonna Westbrook.

    Dude is single-handedly keeping the Lakers close.
     

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