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NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. NAMOR

    NAMOR Senior member

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    this is a silly argument. you want someone to list a better player than griffin? undeniably better? based on what if not statistics.

    if i was going to draft a pf today for the future i would go with dirk. however Dirk is a better PF today
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  2. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  3. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    How about actually watching how the players play and affect the game? Their contributions that isn't calculated in the stat sheet?

    You'll often see Howard be called the best center in the league but he isn't always on the top statistically.

    Look at the top list on ESPN or CBS that isn't about fantasy, there are some correlation there but they don't always match up perfectly. And tell me Griffin isn't on the top of both lists?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  4. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    Admittedly griffin and lillard is arguable. Depends on the metric you're looking at. But tony Parker isn't even on the radar. None of the spurs are individually playing well and the starting five barely break 30 min. Ginobili is playing better than Parker stuck in a rotation with danny green and that other guy. But that's the amazing thing about the spurs. That's how good they and popovich are in general. I bet I could even become a rotation player under popovich (not really but one can hope). The funny thing is they don't even have some tricked out offensive or defensive sets like the heats have with the slash or dish for a three ball offense or super aggressive hedge evey pick and roll (except for the pacers) defense. Spurs have just good fundamentals. It's like watching college ball but better
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  5. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    Actually we are talking about stats. You said it yourself.

    How about nowitzki and Davis? Both play the four next to Dejuan Blair or Ajinca/smith (not to mention James and durant in small lineups)

    Even if we're not talking stats and leave out melo nowitzki is a far better game changing four then griffin. Griffin still needs to polish his mid range game and his post game isn't the best. Nowitzki can reliably hit a shot anywhere on the court and can create shots for himself skills griffin doesn't entirely have. Griffin doesn't even have a three ball game and isn't good on defense (doesn't have the steals and blocks that millsap has and millsap has a three ball game for better spacing. Watch the guys guarding him. People stick by him)

    What kind of idiot calls Howard the top center in the game? Hibbert is a better game changing center than he is
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  6. idfnl

    idfnl Senior member

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    Ha ha... look at Lebron look at him afterwards.

    I told you the kid could play. Now Ray Allen isn't exactly the greatest leaper ever, but play was still impressive for the energy it gives the team.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  7. edmorel

    edmorel Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I find the Carmelo haters to be crazier many times than the Carmelo lovers. Anthony Davis/Blake Griffin are now better players than a guy that lead the league in scoring last year, is top 3 this year, can score from anywhere on the court and can play multiple positions :confused:

    and when the Knicks drafted Hardaway I told you guys it was a great pick.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  8. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Lots of people put Howard the best center, you may disagree or not but some believe he is "back in dominant shape". Look at all the analysts.

    You obviously haven't seen Griffin play, his mid range shot has increased by at least 10%, a drastic change. He is also making his free throws, 70% for the season, better than 70% the past 15-20 games. His post moves isn't great or that of a dominant big man but it is above average, he can still bump and grind in the paint base purely on athleticism but he is getting better at it.

    And again, I said pure 4s. Nowitzki, Lebron, etc... those are more sfs and you know it. Millsap I'd give oyu but he is not and I mean not better than Griffin right now. Their defense is on par, this is why the Clips are winning, Docs making them defend. Millsaps 3 isn't a huge threat an dno one in their right mind would pick Millsap over Griffin to start a team with. It is as simple as that.


    And basing on your "stats" point, you just ignores my post proving Griffins stats to be better than those others?

     
  9. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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  10. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    People would build around griffin because he has a high ceiling.

    I actually wrote about griffins free throws but the stupid software always gets stuck at submitting and I didn't bother to rewrite.

    Dude are you really going to argue griffins free throws is part of the reason he's better than nowitzki the top three best free throw shooter of the game?

    Do you even know how cbs and espn ranks it's players? I don't. Actually fwiu nobody really knows.

    Also nowitzki is a natural three???????????????????? Wtf are you talking about

    Millsap is not the best four these past few games but they've had a really tough schedule under the best defense oriented teams. Mark my words he's going to end up top 12 at the end of the year

    Blake's mid range game has indeed improved a lot but he can't create a mid range shot consistently like melo and nowitzki can. I'd put nowitzki and melo ahead of Aldridge and millsap might end up better. And above average post game doesn't put him ahead of melo

    Also if you're going to limit to pure forwards that only play the four that's a really small field. wouldn't a player able to play multiple positions be a better player all else equal?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  11. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    nice highlight W/A... might check out Heat v. Nets now.
     
  12. ethanm

    ethanm Senior member

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    Carmelo is a basketball player with tremendous skill and the ability to single handedly win a game. BUT over the course of a season he ranks pretty low. 33rd this year so far in WS/48.
     
  13. Neo_Version 7

    Neo_Version 7 Senior member

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    What little respect I had for RiRi evaporated when I saw her cry for the wrap-around on James

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
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  14. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    First of all, I did not say Griffins ft is the sole reason why he is better then Nowitzi, Dirk is simply on his way down, simple as that and he isn't a true PF.


    And are you really saying Millsap is better than Griffin?


    And yeah my fault about Dirk being a natural 3, I was in a hurry earlier but he isn't a prototypical 4. And yes a tweener like Lebron and Dirk are better overall but the discussion is 4 position. See what you wrote below. But again, no one is ranking or picking Dirk before Blake this year, it is as easy as that.


    At the end of the day, this is what you wrote:




    Yet you provided one legit PF, Millsap and it isn't even a question that Griffin is better than him.

    You want stats though, here's some: In January alone, Millsap averaged 12/8/3 n 24% shooting, while Griffin is at 24/9/4 (you can even round those up to 24/10/5) in 53% shooting. The difference is astounding and the 0.3blk and 0.3stl more he gets isn't enough to offset that.

    This season, Griffin is at 22/10/3 at 52fg% and 70ft%, Millsap is at 17/8/2 (can be rounded up 17/9/3 just to be fair) with 46fg% and 73ft%.

    Now, tell me Millsap is better?



    As for Melo and Nowitzki, I'll say it for the last time, PF isn't their natural position. But again, look at the fantasy ranking for forwards and Griffin got them beat. Who gives a damn how they do their ranking, it can be a panel of analysts and sportscasters or some algorithm that gives them a per, whatever but at the end of the day Griffin tops those guys and that is still proof that Griffin is better in those analysts/sportcasters/writers mind.

    Just because it disproves your point doesn't mean you can just shrug it off and say "I don't know how they do their ranking" and make them invalid. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  15. NAMOR

    NAMOR Senior member

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    Griffin reminds me of Sun's Amare. I hope for his sake he doesn't suffer any major leg injury in the future because I don't think his game is developed enough to compensate for less athleticism.

    For the sake of argument, griffin is a top 3 pf. But to me, he isn't good enough to lead a team. That's to say I don't think he has the skills or leadership ability to carry a team to a title. In other words, he is a great 2nd option and only with a better player can he become a champ.

    Edit-watching him now and he is clearly the best player on the court
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  16. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    I was gon say that too, to watch him on ESPN now and see how much he has improved but it is against the Lakers so... :lol:

    But seriously, watch him and tell me he isn't one of the best PF in the game today. Dude is doing everything when he is on the court.
     
  17. Kid Nickels

    Kid Nickels Senior member

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    James, unsurprisingly like a douche, totally overreacted as if he were personally offended. Even though just by the stupid appellation I know I'll be sorry I asked.. "who the fuck is RiRi?"
     
  18. NAMOR

    NAMOR Senior member

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    Mirza Telatovic? Didn't watch the game so not sure what neo meant by his comment
     
  19. indesertum

    indesertum Senior member

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    cbs and espn rankings are bullshit. first off ESPN and cbs doesn't count turnovers. Griffin has a standard deviation more turnovers than millsap. second, you don't even know how they rank their players. how you going to turn around and tell me espn is the end all of rankings and you dont even know how they calculate their rankings? you say just trust the analysts, but you're the one who told me some analysts believe howard is the best center in the nba

    espn uses standardized scoring for their current season rankings. one problem for standardized scoring is that the ends of the spectrum are way overvalued. one of the assumptions of standardized scoring is that the data is normalized, which NBA stats are not. you have to account for skew, which espn does not. espn also simply adds the z-scores for each category, which just amplifies the problem. so pretty much anybody at the end of the spectrum is going to get a big bump in rankings.

    in other words somebody who is a specialist will tend to do better than somebody who does a little bit of everything in the espn rankings (ie griffin vs millsap)

    at least, that's as far as we know. it looks like espn does some adjustments to their stats, but nobody really knows how because they never really say.




    melo and nowitzki aren't natural PFs?

    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    melo spent 48% of the team's total minutes at the 4 last season (compared to 8% at the 3) and had a better PER ranking at the four than at the 3. (http://www.82games.com/1213/12NYK11.HTM)
    nowitzki played 39% at the 4 and 1% at the 5.

    wtf are you talking about?

    if you're going to argue melo and nowitzki aren't natural PFs then how're you going to argue griffin is a natural PF when he spent more time (% of the total team minutes) at the 5 than nowitzki did (http://www.82games.com/1213/12LAC13.HTM)



    i've already said this point but you havent addressed it yet. how're you going to eliminate any player who plays other positions than the four? i said player at the four. this doesnt meant players only at the four. notice how i never wrote only. you say natural power forward, but according to who? you? if anything millsap is the only pure 4 among the players we're talking about.

    you can't just look at raw statistics because 1 point isn't the same thing as 1 block or 1 steal or 1 three. also you're just limiting the categories we're looking at to categories griffin is good at (namely rebounds, points, and fgp). millsap is pretty close to griffin in all the stats you mentioned and is a full standard deviation higher in steals and threes and ftp and half a standard deviation higher in blocks and turnovers.

    this is taken from basketball monster using 9 cats. they use standardized scoring, they adjust for categorical and positional skew, and their player values undergo the same treatment as their categorical scores.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  20. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    I mean I get it that they can play the 4 but then Lebron could be put in all 5 positions because he plays all at some point in his career? Discussion is a 4 position and PFs only, those that are mainly that position. When you think of PFs, you do not think of Lebron or Davis or Horford. I mean right there Dirk played 1% at center, does that mean he is a center?

    Griffin playing more center in his career isn't exactly accurate, VDN hated playing Jordan cuz he can't shoot ft and when odom was in the team, he guarded the center more often than Griffin. This year, he plays a lot more PF because Doc actually plays DJ. And playing 15% as a center dismisses him as PF now?

    And according to that list, Young, Hawes, Anderson and Cousins are better than Blake? I mean what about being a damn idiot like Cousins, that simply doesn't show on the stat sheet? That is obviously his downfall and will hold him back like Bynum but that is null, right? But you'd take those guys over Blake, right? Because of stats.

    I never said ESPN ranking is the end of it all, you just simply do not want to address them because it disproves your point. But whatever.

    At this point we are just going in circles and come to no end.



    At the end of the day...

    It was my list! Before you twist it around and put words in my mouth again, no I am not saying at is the sole list that should be followed and it isn't the end all of all rankings. Simply my list and my opinion you chose to argue against.

    List your top rankings players and be done with this discussion because my opinion doesn't seem valid enough for me to have.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014

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