NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

    Messages:
    16,345
    Likes Received:
    6,098
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    well duh... it was a super draft of all time best players... of course with the 1st pick you choose jordan or a dominant big man like (wilt/shaq). They'd naturally be taken in the top of the 1st round. There's an abundance of scoring guards in that draft... but dominant big men are still scarce even in that all time great pool.
    So many people jumping on what I'm saying that my points are getting mixed up. I was replying to the guy who said he would choose a big man over Jordan because it is essential in making a winning team...
    As great as MJ was, I'd have to take Wilt with the number one pick. The game revolves around dominant big men and point guards who can make their teammates better. With that in mind, if Wilt were unavailable in Round 1, my choice would be Magic Johnson or The Big O.
    In which I said, not necessarily because in todays game, a dominating big man isn't the main component in winning a championship. And I provided examples like MJ winning with crappy role player centers. It was as simple as that. Then people starts jumping and in the end, we end up agreeing anyways. I am not disputing that a big man can't be a center of a franchise but if I were to do that draft and I get #1 pick, I'd pick MJ and chances are Olajuwon (picked 13th) and Dwight Howard (picked 59th) will be available as a number 2 pick and that is a pretty solid duo to start with. Anybody know if there is a simulation machine online where we could do that fantasy draft? It could be fun to set-up something like that just for kicks.
     
  2. eddievddr10

    eddievddr10 Senior member

    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    401
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Location:
    ding! ding! ding!
    Jordan IS 1. Never have i seen an athlete play like mike,his drive was incredible and he just toyed with other teams on the court. This is coming from a knicks fan, the guy broke my heart so many times in the 90s i didnt need a girlfriend.
     
  3. jet

    jet Persian Bro

    Messages:
    20,994
    Likes Received:
    9,104
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Location:
    socal
    [​IMG]
     
  4. thinman

    thinman Senior member

    Messages:
    4,926
    Likes Received:
    40
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Location:
    USA
    So many people jumping on what I'm saying that my points are getting mixed up. I was replying to the guy who said he would choose a big man over Jordan because it is essential in making a winning team... In which I said, not necessarily because in todays game, a dominating big man isn't the main component in winning a championship. And I provided examples like MJ winning with crappy role player centers. It was as simple as that. Then people starts jumping and in the end, we end up agreeing anyways. I am not disputing that a big man can't be a center of a franchise but if I were to do that draft and I get #1 pick, I'd pick MJ and chances are Olajuwon (picked 13th) and Dwight Howard (picked 59th) will be available as a number 2 pick and that is a pretty solid duo to start with. Anybody know if there is a simulation machine online where we could do that fantasy draft? It could be fun to set-up something like that just for kicks.
    IMO, the best recipe for a championship team in today's NBA is (1) one of the best big men in the game (to rebound, defend other big men, and cover up defensive mistakes) and (2) a point guard to distribute the ball and make everyone else better. The big man could be a center or a power forward, but playoff basketball involves a lot of half-court sets, the bread-and-butter of the bigs. Just because the role of center, and the skill set, has evolved so that centers now have more of the skills of smaller players doesn't make them any less important to a successful team. It also doesn't make players like Dirk or Tim Duncan any less dominant, they just dominate in different ways from a traditional dominant big man who can overpower everyone else. I won't argue that MJ is probably the best player of all time, but his position is less important partially because (especially in a fantasy draft) there are more extremely skilled scoring guards and small forwards available than skilled big men. So I would take Wilt first and someone like LeBron, Elgin Baylor, or Jerry West in a later round.
     
  5. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

    Messages:
    16,345
    Likes Received:
    6,098
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Do people not understand my posts?

    Your first category doesn't hold true for a championship team. The last 2 Lakers championship, Pau wasn't dominant (he was pretty much bullied in the paint) and they certainly did not have a pg that distributed the ball.

    That Celtics team that won the chip a year before that had Rondo but he wasn't the passing machine he is now and KG, as I said before, wasn't the dominant big man you were talking about.

    The Spurs team before that had a pretty dominant Duncan still but Parker in that series wasn't a faciliator, he was more of a scorer. Parker hasn't always been the best passing PG and definitely not the most efficient.

    The Detroit team that won the chip, it had Billups but no dominant big man that you described.

    Even the Lakers 3-peat only had a dominant Shaq and a rising Kobe, their PG was still Fisher and Harper and we all know that the triangle doesn't need a traditional PG for it to work.

    Before that was the Bulls decade in which again, no dominant big men and no passing PG.

    Again, no arguments that a dominant big man can help a lot but it isn't a must, not anymore.

    I'm not saying Duncan and Dirk are less dominant at all. But as stated, Dirk is a dominant scorer and he doesn't even have to pound the ball in the paint but dude isn't going to be your main defensive anchor. Duncan can be and I think I did say he was a dominant big man.


    Now, you moved to fantasy bball talk/value and away from creating a "winning team" so this a different topic/discussion.

    Fantasy-wise, yeah centers tend to be more scarce but they are rarely the top 5 picks. Fantasy BBall is pretty much all about stats and MJ averaged 30+/6/6 plus 3 stls and 1 blk per game for his whole career in Chicago? Shooting close to 50% fg% and 84% ft%. That is very hard to pass up as the first pick in your fantasy league, I'd easily assume Lebron is a very close second based on stats alone if they were still playing today.

    Wilts numbers might be inflated, I think he averaged what, 50/40/10? [​IMG] That just seems unfair but you put him in todays game and even in his prime, no way he averages that much but again, that is probably a whole new discussion.
     
  6. thinman

    thinman Senior member

    Messages:
    4,926
    Likes Received:
    40
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Location:
    USA
    Do people not understand my posts?

    Your first category doesn't hold true for a championship team. The last 2 Lakers championship, Pau wasn't dominant (he was pretty much bullied in the paint) and they certainly did not have a pg that distributed the ball.

    That Celtics team that won the chip a year before that had Rondo but he wasn't the passing machine he is now and KG, as I said before, wasn't the dominant big man you were talking about.

    The Spurs team before that had a pretty dominant Duncan still but Parker in that series wasn't a faciliator, he was more of a scorer. Parker hasn't always been the best passing PG and definitely not the most efficient.

    The Detroit team that won the chip, it had Billups but no dominant big man that you described.

    Even the Lakers 3-peat only had a dominant Shaq and a rising Kobe, their PG was still Fisher and Harper and we all know that the triangle doesn't need a traditional PG for it to work.

    Before that was the Bulls decade in which again, no dominant big men and no passing PG.

    Again, no arguments that a dominant big man can help a lot but it isn't a must, not anymore.

    I'm not saying Duncan and Dirk are less dominant at all. But as stated, Dirk is a dominant scorer and he doesn't even have to pound the ball in the paint but dude isn't going to be your main defensive anchor. Duncan can be and I think I did say he was a dominant big man.


    Now, you moved to fantasy bball talk/value and away from creating a "winning team" so this a different topic/discussion.

    Fantasy-wise, yeah centers tend to be more scarce but they are rarely the top 5 picks. Fantasy BBall is pretty much all about stats and MJ averaged 30+/6/6 plus 3 stls and 1 blk per game for his whole career in Chicago? Shooting close to 50% fg% and 84% ft%. That is very hard to pass up as the first pick in your fantasy league, I'd easily assume Lebron is a very close second based on stats alone if they were still playing today.

    Wilts numbers might be inflated, I think he averaged what, 50/40/10? [​IMG] That just seems unfair but you put him in todays game and even in his prime, no way he averages that much but again, that is probably a whole new discussion.


    I understand your posts; I simply disagree with them. You dismiss Pau, KG, Duncan, and Dirk by defining "dominant" very narrowly and, above, you dismiss the point guard play of Rondo and Parker (although Rondo didn't have the reputation, IIRC he played exceptionally well in those playoffs). Then you mention Shaq and point to the lack of a point guard. I'm simply asking you to recognize that the role of big men has evolved along with their skills, so that big men control games today in more ways than simply brutalizing everyone else (re: Wilt, Shaq...). Part of this is due to the introduction of the 3-point line, which puts a premium on outside shooting and moves the game away from the former, almost exclusive emphasis on traditional big men.

    It's also true that skilled big men are more rare than a great SG or SF in fantasy or IRL (see my post "especially in a fantasy draft"). This is why players like Shawn Bradley and George Muresan have NBA careers at all. GMs keep hoping that their 7-footer will finally learn to move his feet without tripping.

    BTW, this is not something we will ever agree on, but I'm enjoying the discussion and your contributions to it. I believe there is no one single way to win a championship and having an all-time great scorer like MJ or Kobe is one legitimate way. If I were building a team, fantasy or otherwise, I would aim for two stars and a bunch of good role players. Given a choice, I would choose to build from stars at the center and point guard positions. You would choose to build around a great scorer. Both are legitimate approaches (but mine is better [​IMG] ).
     
  7. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

    Messages:
    16,345
    Likes Received:
    6,098
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    It's just a discussion so it's all good.

    I have agreed that the game has evolved including that of a role of big men. And that is exactly why I don't think a dominant big man is necessary to win a championship.

    I didn't dismiss those bigs with a narrow definition. A dominant big man is a beast on both ends of the court and becomes your go to guy in which the offense revolves around. The Lakers offense didn't evolve around Pau and he plays good defense but he isn't stopping everyone in the paint. Dirk is an offensive monster but on the defensive end, he can be a liability and let's be honest, he doesn't utilize his size well on that end. KG on the other hand is a defensive monsters, he bothers shots and can get real physical but he isn't even the #2 scoring option in the Boston team. Duncan is a dominant big man, he is pretty much all of those, same with Shaq.

    The definition of a dominant big man will vary from person to person but to me he has to leave the most significant impact in the game where you go, "dude just took over the game on both ends of the court." That is very rare these days and there are a bunch of hybrid players and role players that can contribute enough to win a chip. It isn't a guaranteed winning recipe to have a dominant big man but it helps. However, these days, as you can see, simply having the best big man in the league isn't enough and isn't exactly the blueprint for a championship team.

    I didn't dismiss Rondo, he played well in the playoffs but he didn't become an assist machine that he is today until after that championship and the Celtics became plagued with injuries and he had to take over. He isn't as good of a ball distributer when they won as he is now.

    I didn't dismiss Parker either but you were talking about a PG that contribute the ball, Parker is a score first PG unlike CP3 or DWill or Nash or JKidd. In the Spurs' last chip, Parker averaged 5.5 ast/g and 3 to/g so even he wasn't very efficient either.
     
  8. jet

    jet Persian Bro

    Messages:
    20,994
    Likes Received:
    9,104
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Location:
    socal
    you guys will not win rfx will argue til branesploads
     
  9. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

    Messages:
    16,345
    Likes Received:
    6,098
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    you guys will not win rfx will argue til branesploads

    That's right! Might as well accept defeat now! [​IMG]
     
  10. Rambo

    Rambo Senior member

    Messages:
    27,312
    Likes Received:
    1,617
    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2007
    Location:
    I'M IN MIAMI, BITCH
    you guys will not win rfx will argue til branesploads
    +1
     
  11. jpeirpont

    jpeirpont Senior member

    Messages:
    3,983
    Likes Received:
    69
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Location:
    Negrolandia
    Pau is dominant?
     
  12. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

    Messages:
    17,801
    Likes Received:
    5,801
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Man, you guys are a tough crowd. A 19/10/2 guy with fantastic efficiency and great passing from the pivot isn't dominant? Well sure, not compared to Shaq or Wilt in their prime I guess, but c'mon....

    Also, when Pau stopped playing his usual game they got swept
     
  13. jet

    jet Persian Bro

    Messages:
    20,994
    Likes Received:
    9,104
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Location:
    socal
    Man, you guys are a tough crowd. A 19/10/2 guy with fantastic efficiency and great passing from the pivot isn't dominant? Well sure, not compared to Shaq or Wilt in their prime I guess, but c'mon.... Also, when the team stopped playing his usual game they got swept
    fixed that for you
     
  14. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

    Messages:
    16,345
    Likes Received:
    6,098
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Man, you guys are a tough crowd. A 19/10/2 guy with fantastic efficiency and great passing from the pivot isn't dominant?
    Nope! Bosh averages 20/10/2 in his career too. Love averaged 20/15/2.5 with a 3 point range this year. I'd call neither of them dominant. Al Jefferson with 19/10/2 with 2 blk/g this year as well and nope, not that dominant. That's right, RFX w/ a rebuttal. [​IMG]
     
  15. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

    Messages:
    17,801
    Likes Received:
    5,801
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    How about some dude who averages 21/11/2? A measly point and a rebound more than Bosh.... Those are Tim Duncan's career averages [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by