NBA 2016-2017 Season Thread

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by RFX45, Sep 22, 2010.

  1. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    False, MJ won 6 chips with Luc Longley & Horace Grant as the main centers. Shaq was the last dominant big men to lead a team and win a chip and that was pretty much it. You can argue that Duncan was a dominant big man too but we are talking about centers right? Even then, Duncan didn't feel like as physically imposing force as Shaq was, he did have Robinsons help early in his career. Now I am not arguing that a big man isn't needed but the whole "game revolves around a dominant big men" doesn't hold true anymore just because everyone is so physically big and and athletic these days, you don't even need to be a 7-footer to be a center these days but they still get up there and defend the paint.
    The other perspective on this argument is that if you don't have a dominant big man, then you better have the greatest player ever.
     


  2. jet

    jet Persian Bro

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    [​IMG]
     


  3. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    The other perspective on this argument is that if you don't have a dominant big man, then you better have the greatest player ever.

    Not always true. The Detroit team that beat the Lakers in '04 didn't have a dominant big man either. Same with the Celtics team in '08. You can't say Pau was a dominant big man in the Lakers last championship, sure you have the arguably second best player ever but still no dominant big man there. In this years Dallas win, can we even put Dirk as a dominant big man? He is a whole different class in himself.

    All I'm saying is in these day of age, considering how the game has evolved, a dominant big men isn't necessary to win a championship or build a franchise around. If you had to pick right now, Dwight Howard (best center in the game) is probably the 5th-6th pick to build a franchise around behind Lebron, Wade, Rose, Durant, etc...
     


  4. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    Not always true. The Detroit team that beat the Lakers in '04 didn't have a dominant big man either. Same with the Celtics team in '08.
    Murder's row: [​IMG][​IMG] seriously though the 08' celtics had KG and Perkins both healthy and scary. KG could actually score 25 but deferred. its a universal truth in the NBA if you can get a dominant big man you go out and get him and build your team around him - even as a defensive force first. look at dallas they have chandler. the celtics and lakers have always had championship runs around big guys (KG is pretty much a center who doesn't like to be classified as a center).
     


  5. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    seriously though the 08' celtics had KG and Perkins both healthy and scary.

    Still not dominant. I mean we are talking about Kareem and Wilt type of big men here, KG and Perkins doesn't even come close. Heck KG isn't even the MVP of that team and while the team wouldn't win w/o his defensive presence, I'd still put Pierce and Allen ahead of him in the teams MVP category.
     


  6. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    In this years Dallas win, can we even put Dirk as a dominant big man? He is a whole different class in himself.

    sure you can, dirk is 84inches tall. he may have guard-like offensive skills, but as I recall dirk play'ed a ton of center in the playoffs. plus he still can post up like a typical big man just fine.

    dirk was "uber dominierend" this playoffs.
     


  7. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    No argument about his dominance but he isn't the typical big man thats for sure.

    Plus he didn't play much center position in the playoffs, it's always been Chandler, Haywood or Mahimi.
     


  8. munchausen

    munchausen Senior member

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    Ben Wallace was pretty dominant in 04, at least on defense and the boards. Maybe not a "Wilt or Shaq" but that's a pretty high standard to meet.
     


  9. jet

    jet Persian Bro

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    cue monster kobe dunk over ben wallace
     


  10. Mark from Plano

    Mark from Plano Lifestyle change - no homo

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    Seems to me that you need scoring and defense in the paint, and how you get it is more flexible. With Kareem/Wilt/Duncan etc. you get it in a single person.

    Mavs are a good model for this actually. Early on with Dirk they had neither. He was a 7 footer who could score from the outside, but had no post game and was their worst defensive player. Over time he developed more of a post game, but up until two years ago was still a defensive weakness. This year, they were able to get to the Championship by bringing in Chandler to provide defense in the paint. Dirk then didn't have to be quite so isolated on post-defense. He's still never going to be NBA all-Defense, but the team defense was able to cover some of his flaws in the man-to-man game. So you had scoring from the outside by...well...everyone. You had scoring in the paint by Dirk, and some combination of Marion/Butler/Barea/Terry and you defense in the paint anchored around Chandler.

    You need a great player, or you need a great team. Either way works, but the great team is harder to build and almost impossible to keep together for long stretches (Chandler, Barea, Butler and perhaps a couple of others are all free agents). With a single-player system, whether it's Jordan or Kobe or Wilt, you can plug in "a good player to be named later" around him and win a title.

    EDIT: I'm a huge Dirk fan, but calling him a dominant big man is probably a stretch given his weaknesses as a one-on-one defender. He's a dominant scorer, but I don't think that's the same thing.
     


  11. ConcernedParent

    ConcernedParent Senior member

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    Still not dominant. I mean we are talking about Kareem and Wilt type of big men here, KG and Perkins doesn't even come close. Heck KG isn't even the MVP of that team and while the team wouldn't win w/o his defensive presence, I'd still put Pierce and Allen ahead of him in the teams MVP category.

    WTF do you mean by "dominant big men" then? If we're talking about the physically imposing hulks that are going to score at will when posted in the key, then there's literally only been like 3 in the history of the game.
     


  12. munchausen

    munchausen Senior member

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    WTF do you mean by "dominant big men" then? If we're talking about the physically imposing hulks that are going to score at will when posted in the key, then there's literally only been like 3 in the history of the game.

    I'd say at least 4. George Mikan wasn't that big by today's standard but if you see footage of him playing in the 50s he looks like he was playing against midgets.
     


  13. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    WTF do you mean by "dominant big men" then? If we're talking about the physically imposing hulks that are going to score at will when posted in the key, then there's literally only been like 3 in the history of the game.

    You really think KG in that Boston championship team was dominant? He was dominant in Minnesota. They built a team around him in Minnesota but where did that get them? First round in the playoffs?

    I don't mean physically imposing but centers that can score at will and a franchise is built around who can score and defend and still be the number option. There has been more than 3 dominant big men in the history of the league, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Dwight, Duncan, Ewing and Olajuwon just to name a few. And all centers, when talking about dominating big men I just always imagine centers so that's on me. To me, that KG in Boston wasn't dominant, maybe when he picked on Calderon and Bayless, you can say dominant big men over small guards and foreigners but in that Boston team, no he was not dominant compared to the ones I mentioned. In his prime, no doubt.

    Again we are talking about the subject of building a team around a dominant big men based on the article posted, a big man franchise player. They weren't building a team around KG in the Celtics, it was more of a super team, they all worked well together for that chip.
     


  14. LawrenceMD

    LawrenceMD Senior member

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    Again we are talking about the subject of building a team around a dominant big men based on the article posted, a big man franchise player. They weren't building a team around KG in the Celtics, it was more of a super team, they all worked well together for that chip.

    well duh... it was a super draft of all time best players... of course with the 1st pick you choose jordan or a dominant big man like (wilt/shaq). They'd naturally be taken in the top of the 1st round.

    There's an abundance of scoring guards in that draft... but dominant big men are still scarce even in that all time great pool.
     


  15. munchausen

    munchausen Senior member

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    well duh... it was a super draft of all time best players... of course with the 1st pick you choose jordan or a dominant big man like (wilt/shaq). They'd naturally be taken in the top of the 1st round.

    There's an abundance of scoring guards in that draft... but dominant big men are still scarce even in that all time great pool.

    That is a good point, actually. You take Jordan, and the first tier of big men are gone by the time it's your turn to pick again.

    I'd still take Jordan, though.
     


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