my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I still don't like how the shoulder lifts up at the sleeve joint [​IMG] please ask them to press it down.

    Is it just me, or do a lot of Mina's jacket's have slightly concave shoulders (vaguely pagodo-like)?

    Not pagoda style but concave, yes. There is a discussion of this, complete with red lines, in a NSM thread Edmorel started. Maybe it can be found and posted here.

    This shape/expression won't show up on the try-on garment as much as in the finished jacket.

    To me, this is the biggest draw to Mina's jackets. This is the hardest shoulder to make and very few tailors are able to execute this very well. Most don't want to try. I've spent years seeking tailors who make this to learn from. IMO this shoulder gives the most freedom and movement to a jacket and sits/stays on the shoulder the best. This is a thing of beauty! If you don't care for the aesthetic, I'm sure she will accommodate with a different profile of shoulder but asking to flatten and press it down is like being at the best steak house in town and putting ketchup on your steak. As this shoulder isn't seen much I can see how it would look unnaturally different to what is the more common ways of shoulder construction.
     


  2. medtech_expat

    medtech_expat Senior member

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    ^^^ You're right, not in those photos. Maybe I'm just seeing things.

    I think it was the crappy iPhone pics, the angle of the (poor) light and my stance. My meetings are almost done, I'll pop into the restroom for a direct frontal pic next to the obligatory urinal...

    Ed - what fabric is that again? LP?

    Yup, LP.
     


  3. chorse123

    chorse123 Senior member

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    Is it just me, or do a lot of Mina's jacket's have slightly concave shoulders (vaguely pagodo-like)?

    I'm seeing it too, but I wonder how much is the "arms up so I can self-photograph" pose.
     


  4. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    Not pagoda style but concave, yes. There is a discussion of this, complete with red lines, in a NSM thread Edmorel started. Maybe it can be found and posted here.

    This shape/expression won't show up on the try-on garment as much as in the finished jacket.

    To me, this is the biggest draw to Mina's jackets. This is the hardest shoulder to make and very few tailors are able to execute this very well. Most don't want to try. I've spent years seeking tailors who make this to learn from. IMO this shoulder gives the most freedom and movement to a jacket and sits/stays on the shoulder the best. This is a thing of beauty! If you don't care for the aesthetic, I'm sure she will accommodate with a different profile of shoulder but asking to flatten and press it down is like being at the best steak house in town and putting ketchup on your steak. As this shoulder isn't seen much I can see how it would look unnaturally different to what is the more common ways of shoulder construction.


    I didn't say it was objectively bad--I just noticed it was there. But no, personally, I don't like it.
     


  5. radicaldog

    radicaldog Senior member

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    I have to say that those are very well made suits, but the silhouette is very pronouncedly southern Italian -- something which would not go down very well even in Italy, at least in certain environments. The Rubinacci cut is just about as neapolitan as one can get away with without looking foppish, or provincial, or worse. The NSM cut may be ok for casual stuff, but for work and formal wear the Neapolitan styling is just too pronounced.
     


  6. TRINI

    TRINI Senior member

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    Yup, LP.

    Cheers - do you remember the book? I love the scale of the plaids...curious to see what else they have.
     


  7. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt The Liberator Dubiously Honored

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    I have to say that those are very well made suits, but the silhouette is very pronouncedly southern Italian -- something which would not go down very well even in Italy, at least in certain environments. The Rubinacci cut is just about as neapolitan as one can get away with without looking foppish, or provincial, or worse. The NSM cut may be ok for casual stuff, but for work and formal wear the Neapolitan styling is just too pronounced.
    The two cuts you mention are so different that it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
     


  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    I have to say that those are very well made suits, but the silhouette is very pronouncedly southern Italian -- something which would not go down very well even in Italy, at least in certain environments. The Rubinacci cut is just about as neapolitan as one can get away with without looking foppish, or provincial, or worse. The NSM cut may be ok for casual stuff, but for work and formal wear the Neapolitan styling is just too pronounced.

    This goes to the point I made in the other Neapolitan tailoring thread. There is evidently quite a bit of range in what Neapolitan tailors do. While I wouldn't be surprised if Neapolitan tailors trying to trade on the sudden fashionability of imagined Neapolitan style now characterize the field more than others, the super-lean, super high-gorge, puffy shirt-set sleeved jacket is not the only kind of jacket Naples is known for, and arguably very far from what much of what was traditionally done there. I'm not a historian on the matter, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of such extreme aethetics from two or three decades ago.
     


  9. radicaldog

    radicaldog Senior member

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    The two cuts you mention are so different that it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
    I agree that they are very different, but they are both Neapolitan, hence a comparison seems fair. Good and bad Neapolitan, to be crude. I should add that I see quite a lot of variation even between NSM suits, judging from the pictures above. The grey and the chalk stripe seem much better than the blue three-piece.
     


  10. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    There are pronounced similarities between my NSM coat and my Solito. The shape of the lapels are cut much the same, as are the swoops of the quarters and the sleeve caps. Front dart to the bottom, angled side dart, etc.

    But NSM is less draped, MUCH tighter in the waist and has a more pronounced back balance kick. The sleeves also are narrower.

    The vest is so different from an SR vest that it may as well be a different category of garment.
     


  11. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't say it was objectively bad--I just noticed it was there. But no, personally, I don't like it.

    I get the same kick from seeing well made shoulders like these as seeing the lines of a beautifully designed car. Over the years, my appreciation of high gorges, unpadded shoulders and such has changed but I can't get past flat or convex shoulders. Big downer for me.
     


  12. radicaldog

    radicaldog Senior member

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    This goes to the point I made in the other Neapolitan tailoring thread. There is evidently quite a bit of range in what Neapolitan tailors do. While I wouldn't be surprised if Neapolitan tailors trying to trade on the sudden fashionability of imagined Neapolitan style now characterize the field more than others, the super-lean, super high-gorge, puffy shirt-set sleeved jacket is not the only kind of jacket Naples is known for, and arguably very far from what much of what was traditionally done there. I'm not a historian on the matter, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of such extreme aethetics from two or three decades ago.

    Yes. There is that old theory about the two schools (was it Attolini and Blasi?), one draped, one lean, etc. It's probably true. It's also the case that 'Naples' is now almost a brand (certainly it is in Italy), so it's conceivable that some makers have emphasised those styling elements to make their silhouette easier to recognise by potential customers. Ditto for RTW shirts with lots of gimmicks.
     


  13. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    There are pronounced similarities between my NSM coat and my Solito. The shape of the lapels are cut much the same, as are the swoops of the quarters and the sleeve caps. Front dart to the bottom, angled side dart, etc.

    But frankly, all that stuff is rather superficial--more incidental than essential.

    But NSM is less draped, MUCH tighter in the waist and has a more pronounced back balance kick. The sleeves also are narrower.

    This stuff, on the other hand, goes to what really matters. Your Solito suits and the Mina things posted might as well come from different countries, nonetheless different regions of Italy and different tailors.

    I get the same kick from seeing well made shoulders like these as seeing the lines of a beautifully designed car. Over the years, my appreciation of high gorges, unpadded shoulders and such has changed but I can't get past flat or convex shoulders. Big downer for me.

    I can appreciate the technical achievement for sure. But, as you say, there is also the aesthetic judgement that must come into play.

    Yes. There is that old theory about the two schools (was it Attolini and Blasi?), one draped, one lean, etc. It's probably true. It's also the case that 'Naples' is now almost a brand (certainly it is in Italy), so it's conceivable that some makers have emphasised those styling elements to make their silhouette easier to recognise by potential customers. Ditto for RTW shirts with lots of gimmicks.

    I don't know--I don't remember any old photos of Neapolitan suits or jackets that look anything remotely similar to this new-fangled stuff. It's fine if you like it that way, but it's a tad misleading to equate it unconditionally with being "Neapolitan."
     


  14. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    I still think you are going too far. First, the shape of lapels, quarters, etc., are not incidental. They have a huge impact on how the suit looks and the overall aesthetic.

    Second, I can now instantly identify both as "Neapolitan" however different they are. I've seen lots of Roman and Milanese tailoring and there is no way either NSM or Solito could have come from there.
     


  15. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    It's also the case that 'Naples' is now almost a brand (certainly it is in Italy), so it's conceivable that some makers have emphasised those styling elements to make their silhouette easier to recognise by potential customers. Ditto for RTW shirts with lots of gimmicks.

    This is a nice theory. I don't believe that it applies to NSM, though, based on the chat I had with them. Mina and Dino were dismissive of RTW Naples stuff, both in terms of representing traditional make and the overall style. I doubt that she seeks to mimic the Neiman Marcus and Barney's racks. She also seemed not to be very cognizant of what the "luxury" American chains carry. This makes sense to me.

    But, your distinction between the Attolini and Blasi historical influences might explain a lot. At least in my case, I plan to use it for stuff that is for sunnier climes, and sunnier and more casual moods. It does not bother me at all that it would have a "regional" flavor. Frankly, as someone who more often than not wears things in the A&S style, I am already guilty of wearing a niche product unlikely to give comfort to plump American worker bees.


    - B
     


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