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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    Yeah, I don't know why clicking on the image doesn't work. You have to right click on it, then pick "open in new tab".
     
  2. kulata

    kulata Senior member

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    Looks pa-fucked to me.
     
  3. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    We've already been through the Rubinacci shoulder business. And even if Foo were gluing Kleenex-brand tissues to his shoulders for extra lumpiness, that would have no bearing on whether the NSM shoulder is intentional or desirable.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  4. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    What you're seeing in the Rubinacci shoulders is not the NSM artifact, which makes the shoulder line go concave and turn upward. Rather, you are seeing the natural drop-off of the wearer's own shoulders, resulting from the near total lack of wadding/padding. Notice that it does not invert like the NSM examples. There is no concavity or upturn. It is convex all the way through.

    Also, it is consistent across Rubinacci jackets. It is always how I thought my jackets would look before I even became a client. If you don't like it, Rubinacci and many other Neapolitan tailors probably aren't for you. That's fine. We all have our own preferences. But mistakes are a different matter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  5. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Ah, I finally opened up the full resolution photo of PSG on the page prior. Yes, the artifact is highly mitigated. But if you look closely, you can still see evidence of it:

    [​IMG]

    At first blush, it just looks like a little waviness. However, if you examine that waviness closely, you can see that the shoulder line still inverts curvature at about the same point as on other NSM jackets. Obviously I cannot say for sure, but given all the different examples we've seen, it appears as if there is too much wadding between the scye and the acromion. The magnitude of the effect will be different on different wearers, depending on their own shoulder shapes. If the theory is correct, then PSG has a bigger drop-off after his acromion than most, which allows the wadded-up shoulder ends to fall more or less level with the rest of his shoulder line. In the case of those with a less steep drop-off, the wadding might be causing the shoulder to swing upward.

    Yes, it is just a guess. But that's what it looks like. All my Rubinacci jackets have a semi-circular bit of wadding where I've illustrated on PSG's NSM jacket above. It's very, very hard to feel. If you didn't know to look for it, you would assume there is nothing there. Anyone with an NSM jacket want to see if they can feel it? Also, check if the upturn is solid or hollow.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  6. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    Maybe, the shoulder seems to have a very slight pa-fucked effect but it also looks a bit more extended than other NSM examples, so it falls back down at the edge. But anyways, I think the bumpiness in this case is very much within acceptable parameters, at least for an unpadded shoulder. The underlying physique, or even the shirt, could be contributing factors. Besides that, the jacket looks very flattering overall, I really like it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  7. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm not saying PSG's jacket is good or bad. I'm just pointing out that it's a useful case for understanding why the upturn happens, as there is still evidence of a suspected cause even though the symptom is much more quietly expressed.
     
  8. NOBD

    NOBD Senior member

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    OMG, children.
     
    2 people like this.
  9. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    I think there are different causes that add up for the upturn, and it looks very mitigated here because the shoulder actually fits right, so you can only see the bump created by the underlying wadding. That's why I think it's acceptable. But when the upturn is more pronounced I believe other factors come into play (armscye not sitting right, probably). These are all just guesses though - as you say, it'd be important to know if that area is hollow or there are just tons of wadding...

    The fact that I really like the jacket was something I wanted to add; nothing to do with the shoulder issue, sorry about that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You know, I agree that the most probable cause is not wadding. But that theory has been discussed, so I thought PSG's jacket might prove an interesting reference point. I suspect it isn't wadding to blame because the upturn is sometimes very acute--like a little horn at the shoulder tips. So, my best best is that it's caused by the way the armhole is cut (too big and high above the wearer's shoulders). If you feel empty space in the upturned part of the jacket shoulder, then you know that's got to be the reason. Nothing is there to prop up the shoulder end other than the armhole, and the shoulder end couldn't be propped up without a big enough armhole to accommodate.

    As for wadding showing through: that should never happen. I'm getting the sense that a lot of people think "soft and light" tailoring is carte blanche for making errors.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  11. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    The biggest difference is in the DBs. Franks SB in the Neapolitan style also looks different to me.
     
  12. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    You shouldn't be able to clearly tell where wadding starts. But on very softly tailored jackets, common sense leads me to believe it will eventually create some bumpiness, specially after being worn for some time. As long as it's just slight bumps and not obvious marks that differentiate where wadding is and is not, I think it's fine...
     
  13. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I've never seen a Rubinacci in the wild. However, one day at Leffot I saw a guy wearing one. I asked if Rubi and boom, it was. I got like a million igent points instantly.
     
  14. Loathing

    Loathing Senior member

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    Finally, you've come round to what other people were writing about a million pages ago!
    Now you should really retract all references to "pagoda shoulders" and most importantly denounce the repulsive and childish epithet that you invented: "pa-fucked".
     
  15. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Frank's neo-shoulder expression he's done for me:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
    4 people like this.
  16. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I don't think this is true. My quarter-lined suits in 8/9 oz. fresco have zero padding--just that bit of wadding near the scye. No bumpiness at all. Part of the art of tailoring something soft and light is effectively dealing with these issues. That's why not everyone everywhere can do it.


    Yeah, cause there's that consistent look. The shoulder line on Mariano is the Rubinacci shoulder line.
     
  17. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Are you trying to be an ass or an idiot? Both?

    The cause is up in the air, not the effect. What makes the shoulders pa-fucked is how they appear, not the tailoring defect that makes them look that way.


    Much, much nicer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  18. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    You're probably right. I haven't owned unpadded jackets for long enough to see if it eventually happens (I have two of them, and there are no discernible bumps at the moment). My stuff is not of great quality anyways.

    Slight bumps wouldn't bother me, but that's probably just me being less exigent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  19. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    FWIW, there is some wadding at the ends of my Frank's stuff as well. Very very thin. Like probably, maybe 1/8"
     
  20. Loathing

    Loathing Senior member

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    Insulting other people's intelligence is a sign of low intelligence, insecurity, or immaturity. :)


    The cause is up in the air, apart from it's clear that the cause is not an overabundance of wadding. That's been proven abundantly. And until now, you were ignoring that and misleading people.
    The pagoda misnomer is not just relevant to the effect, but the cause too, because a pagoda shoulder is the product of a hell of a lot of padding.:teach:
     

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