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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    After some consideration, I think Mina, Dino, and others are right. Medium brown horn buttons are probably the way to go. It'll still look fine for a sport coat, whereas grey smoked MOP might not look right for a suit.

    Thanks all for the help.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    For as reluctant as I am to feed :foo:'s need for attention, I decided - for reasons that remain unclear even to me - to take some photos to illustrate why NSM's shoulders look the way they do.

    I know that :foo: will, undoubtedly, come back screaming all the more loudly that it's effed up and a huge mistake. And at that point, the conversation will have become too pointless, even for me, and I'll opt out.

    But in case anyone (apart for me) find this stuff interesting, here's a comparison.
     
  3. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    Here are three takes on a soft, Naples-y shoulder.

    Rubinacci
    [​IMG]

    Solito
    [​IMG]

    Mina
    [​IMG]

    I put them in order of increasing slope at the end of the shoulder. Now onto why each shoulder looks the way it does.

    Even a jacket with a very shoft shoulder, will have something in the sleevehead to make the sleeves fall straight. (The ripples in the sleevehead are due to something different - it's been written about extensively elsewhere but it's akin to shirring.)

    For some bizarre reason, people like to say their stuff is completely unpadded. While that's not true, it's become an article of faith for some people so I'll avoid using the P-word. Let's uinstead refer to this as 'stuff that helps the sleeve hang nicely' or STHTSHN for short.

    As I mentioned upthreak, the bump at the end of a NSM shoulder starts where the STHTSHN starts.

    As you might be able to see from these photos, both the NSM and the Rubinacci have visible STHTSHN:

    [​IMG]
    ^ it's fairly obvious on the NSM

    [​IMG]
    ^ It's definitely there on the 'Nacci but it's slightly harder to see due to the thicker fabric so here are some ghetto red lines, courtesy of Paint and my nerves of steel:

    [​IMG]

    So, given that they both have STHTSHN and roughly the same amount of it (i.e. is starts in about the same place on the shoulder) why does the NSM have a bump at the end while the 'Nacci is bump-free?

    Two reasons - (1) the Rubinacci has more padding throughout the shoulder and (2) the Rubinacci has an extended shoulder

    1) more padding throughout the shoulder

    This is something that's really hard (at least for my meager ability) to capture on camera but what I've tried to convey here is a sense for how much padding is present throughout the shoulder and especially right where the STHTSHN starts…

    Rubinacci
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Don't get me wrong, it feels like butta but there something in there. It's not pre-formed padding and the Thomas Mahonian term of 'wadding' seems appropriate but there's something in there, especially at the sleevehead helping to smooth the transition to the STHTSHN.


    Solito
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Solito is a similar to Rubinacci, though with perhaps a but less wadding throughout the shoulder.


    Mina Su Misura
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There just absolutely nothing in there. It's more obvious with the thin cloth. But it's just cloth, canvas and lining until you hit the STHTSHN.

    (As an aside, that visible basting stitch - and it's not the only one - always bugs me.)


    2) extended shoulder

    If you stare at these photos for quite a while, there a chance you'll notice that the 'Nacci and the Solito have a similar amount of padding throughout the shoulder but the Solito has a little bump at the end, whereas the 'Nacci does not.

    That's down to the second reason that NSM has a bump at the end, while Rubinacci does not - the 'Nacci has an extended shoulder.

    On the NSM, the STHTSHN sits atop my shoulder bone. On the Rubinacci, the STHTSHN sits atop empty space, my ripped triceps being a little bit lower.

    It looks like Luca, prefers a less extended shoulder and that - I'd conjecture - is why he has a Solito-like bump at the end of his shoulder.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    12 people like this.
  4. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    Great report Cantabrigan! I agree with your assessment about how the minimal padding affects the shoulder line. Now I just wait for the riposte. :lurk:
     
  5. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    This doesn't explain why one person can have some Mina jackets that show the effect and other jackets that don't.
     
  6. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    Those jackets have more padding in the shoulder. A heavier cloth that would also make it somewhat less apparent, for the obvious reasons.
     
  7. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Could you pls ID the blue fabric (NSM coat)?
     
  8. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Isn't that the official iGent fresco--0520?
     
  9. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    I would have thought that the bump you call STHTSHN is just the sleeve seam allowance (which is pressed towards the body on a shirt shoulder). Do they put something else in there besides wadding?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think you miss the point of my criticism.

    I never said that a Neapolitan, or any other jacket, should be completely unpadded. That is an internet myth that I've tried dispelling myself many times. Every bespoke jacket I've seen from Naples has a bit of wadding where the shoulder hits the scye. That is the way all mine are made too.

    The problem with the NSM jackets has nothing to do with whether they have wadding. It is, ultimately, about how the shoulder line is expressed. That could have to do with how the wadding is shaped, where it is inserted, etc. It could also have to do with how the jackets are cut. The point is: the shoulder line should not invert itself, going from convex to concave. A pagoda shoulder will be fully concave. A natural shoulder will be fully convex. What NSM does is neither. However they pad/wad/cut the shoulder, they should do it in a way that expresses an elegant line. I don't particularly like Luca's jacket shoulders, but more importantly, you shouldn't use them as a comparison or reference--they are completely unlike what Rubinacci typically produces, and when compared to the output specific to the Naples workshop, virtually Martian.

    So, this talk of wadding is neither here nor there. The resulting shape is the issue. I don't care if NSM pads or not. But they should be more thoughtful about how they execute the shoulder line.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  11. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Quote:Looks a bit darker than the 520. I was thinking that its perhaps a Smiths?
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This is terrible reasoning.

    A good tailor would modify the type/amount of padding or wadding for the cloth and degree of shoulder extension. Evidently, NSM does not. That in and of itself is a big error. It's as if they are rotely following the instructions for a wadded, extended shoulder (where the wadding is used to keep the shoulder line from completely collapsing), but not adjusting the proportions or position of the wadding for less shoulder extension.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  13. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Foo - how did you get your b&w avatar? Is that a photoshop thingy?
     
  14. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yep. There is probably a much smarter, faster way to do it than the method I used, though.
     
  15. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    It is my official badge of iGentry.

    In my defense, I chose it independently while I was away from the forumz.
     
  16. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    You can choose your line or your padding but not both.

    You prefer lines. Mina prefers the absence of padding. Those two statements are fairly unrelated to each other.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  17. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    foo, Cantabrigian - thanks for the replies.

    Weird, I have the 520 as well, but mine looks a good bit lighter. Maybe its just my screen.
     
  18. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That makes even less sense.

    First of all, tailoring is intrinsically about how a garment takes shape. To make something without respect to its appearance is not a legitimate preference--it's a mask for laziness or incompetence, or both. Think of all the manner of garbage a tailor could get away with upon such "preferences." So, yes, I prefer "lines." That is how you judge tailoring.

    Also--and I'm beginning to feel like I'm arguing against an army of NSM-programmed web-bots--there is wadding in the NSM jacket shoulders. You said it yourself. The difference between it and my Rubinacci jackets (which are unpadded except for wadding at the edges of the shoulder) is where the wadding is positioned, how much is used, and perhaps, how it is shaped.

    To eliminate the cancerous upswing in the NSM shoulder line, you need less wadding, not more. You are arguing as if that little inverted curvature is inevitable given "the absence of padding." Not so at all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  19. Cantabrigian

    Cantabrigian Senior member

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    I'll go ahead and ignore your ranting, if you don't mind.

    But this bit is factually incorrect. You would either need to add some padding further up the shoulder or else extend the shoulder - but extending this sort of shoulder would invariably look worse, which is why Mina refuses to do it.
     
  20. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You would only need padding further up the shoulder line or to extend the shoulder if there is too much wadding at the scye. Reducing the wadding is the more sensible, and I thought, painfully obvious, solution. The very function of wadding is to prevent the shoulder line from collapsing. If you are putting in so much that the shoulder line curves upward, you've obviously used too much. Again, you are arguing as if certain things are given, when they are not. There is no Biblical commandment stating that a certain amount of wadding must be used. It has a function. Evidently, NSM just inserts it indiscriminately. That is not validating.

    Also, why would you ever want a soft, drapey Neapolitan jacket if you think shoulder extension is intrinsically bad? Rubinacci, Solito, Panico, etc., do it as standard practice. It is largely responsible for the "drape" between the arm and the chest, actually.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013

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