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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. TRINI

    TRINI Senior member

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    Yup, LP.

    Cheers - do you remember the book? I love the scale of the plaids...curious to see what else they have.
     
  2. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have to say that those are very well made suits, but the silhouette is very pronouncedly southern Italian -- something which would not go down very well even in Italy, at least in certain environments. The Rubinacci cut is just about as neapolitan as one can get away with without looking foppish, or provincial, or worse. The NSM cut may be ok for casual stuff, but for work and formal wear the Neapolitan styling is just too pronounced.
    The two cuts you mention are so different that it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
     
  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have to say that those are very well made suits, but the silhouette is very pronouncedly southern Italian -- something which would not go down very well even in Italy, at least in certain environments. The Rubinacci cut is just about as neapolitan as one can get away with without looking foppish, or provincial, or worse. The NSM cut may be ok for casual stuff, but for work and formal wear the Neapolitan styling is just too pronounced.

    This goes to the point I made in the other Neapolitan tailoring thread. There is evidently quite a bit of range in what Neapolitan tailors do. While I wouldn't be surprised if Neapolitan tailors trying to trade on the sudden fashionability of imagined Neapolitan style now characterize the field more than others, the super-lean, super high-gorge, puffy shirt-set sleeved jacket is not the only kind of jacket Naples is known for, and arguably very far from what much of what was traditionally done there. I'm not a historian on the matter, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of such extreme aethetics from two or three decades ago.
     
  4. radicaldog

    radicaldog Senior member

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    The two cuts you mention are so different that it is hard to use them in the same sentence.
    I agree that they are very different, but they are both Neapolitan, hence a comparison seems fair. Good and bad Neapolitan, to be crude. I should add that I see quite a lot of variation even between NSM suits, judging from the pictures above. The grey and the chalk stripe seem much better than the blue three-piece.
     
  5. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There are pronounced similarities between my NSM coat and my Solito. The shape of the lapels are cut much the same, as are the swoops of the quarters and the sleeve caps. Front dart to the bottom, angled side dart, etc.

    But NSM is less draped, MUCH tighter in the waist and has a more pronounced back balance kick. The sleeves also are narrower.

    The vest is so different from an SR vest that it may as well be a different category of garment.
     
  6. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't say it was objectively bad--I just noticed it was there. But no, personally, I don't like it.

    I get the same kick from seeing well made shoulders like these as seeing the lines of a beautifully designed car. Over the years, my appreciation of high gorges, unpadded shoulders and such has changed but I can't get past flat or convex shoulders. Big downer for me.
     
  7. radicaldog

    radicaldog Senior member

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    This goes to the point I made in the other Neapolitan tailoring thread. There is evidently quite a bit of range in what Neapolitan tailors do. While I wouldn't be surprised if Neapolitan tailors trying to trade on the sudden fashionability of imagined Neapolitan style now characterize the field more than others, the super-lean, super high-gorge, puffy shirt-set sleeved jacket is not the only kind of jacket Naples is known for, and arguably very far from what much of what was traditionally done there. I'm not a historian on the matter, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of such extreme aethetics from two or three decades ago.

    Yes. There is that old theory about the two schools (was it Attolini and Blasi?), one draped, one lean, etc. It's probably true. It's also the case that 'Naples' is now almost a brand (certainly it is in Italy), so it's conceivable that some makers have emphasised those styling elements to make their silhouette easier to recognise by potential customers. Ditto for RTW shirts with lots of gimmicks.
     
  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There are pronounced similarities between my NSM coat and my Solito. The shape of the lapels are cut much the same, as are the swoops of the quarters and the sleeve caps. Front dart to the bottom, angled side dart, etc.

    But frankly, all that stuff is rather superficial--more incidental than essential.

    But NSM is less draped, MUCH tighter in the waist and has a more pronounced back balance kick. The sleeves also are narrower.

    This stuff, on the other hand, goes to what really matters. Your Solito suits and the Mina things posted might as well come from different countries, nonetheless different regions of Italy and different tailors.

    I get the same kick from seeing well made shoulders like these as seeing the lines of a beautifully designed car. Over the years, my appreciation of high gorges, unpadded shoulders and such has changed but I can't get past flat or convex shoulders. Big downer for me.

    I can appreciate the technical achievement for sure. But, as you say, there is also the aesthetic judgement that must come into play.

    Yes. There is that old theory about the two schools (was it Attolini and Blasi?), one draped, one lean, etc. It's probably true. It's also the case that 'Naples' is now almost a brand (certainly it is in Italy), so it's conceivable that some makers have emphasised those styling elements to make their silhouette easier to recognise by potential customers. Ditto for RTW shirts with lots of gimmicks.

    I don't know--I don't remember any old photos of Neapolitan suits or jackets that look anything remotely similar to this new-fangled stuff. It's fine if you like it that way, but it's a tad misleading to equate it unconditionally with being "Neapolitan."
     
  9. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I still think you are going too far. First, the shape of lapels, quarters, etc., are not incidental. They have a huge impact on how the suit looks and the overall aesthetic.

    Second, I can now instantly identify both as "Neapolitan" however different they are. I've seen lots of Roman and Milanese tailoring and there is no way either NSM or Solito could have come from there.
     
  10. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    It's also the case that 'Naples' is now almost a brand (certainly it is in Italy), so it's conceivable that some makers have emphasised those styling elements to make their silhouette easier to recognise by potential customers. Ditto for RTW shirts with lots of gimmicks.

    This is a nice theory. I don't believe that it applies to NSM, though, based on the chat I had with them. Mina and Dino were dismissive of RTW Naples stuff, both in terms of representing traditional make and the overall style. I doubt that she seeks to mimic the Neiman Marcus and Barney's racks. She also seemed not to be very cognizant of what the "luxury" American chains carry. This makes sense to me.

    But, your distinction between the Attolini and Blasi historical influences might explain a lot. At least in my case, I plan to use it for stuff that is for sunnier climes, and sunnier and more casual moods. It does not bother me at all that it would have a "regional" flavor. Frankly, as someone who more often than not wears things in the A&S style, I am already guilty of wearing a niche product unlikely to give comfort to plump American worker bees.


    - B
     
  11. George

    George Senior member

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  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I still think you are going too far. First, the shape of lapels, quarters, etc., are not incidental. They have a huge impact on how the suit looks and the overall aesthetic.

    Second, I can now instantly identify both as "Neapolitan" however different they are. I've seen lots of Roman and Milanese tailoring and there is no way either NSM or Solito could have come from there.


    Granted, there are hallmarks, as you point out. But the fact that I can spot a Mercedes because of the badge on its trunk lid or the ornament on its hood doesn't make such indicators significant to the style and design of the car. They are incidental in the sense that they are what Mercedes happens to slap on every model, regardless of its substantive aesthetic or functional qualities.

    So, yes, I can spot a Neapolitan jacket too. However, that doesn't mean Neapolitan jackets share a style that can be meaningfully generalized. I'd probably go to a place like Caraceni, Poole or Sedwell before turning to another Neapolitan tailor.
     
  13. medtech_expat

    medtech_expat Senior member

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  14. George

    George Senior member

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    [​IMG]
    Why is the ticket pocket so high...?
     
  15. itsstillmatt

    itsstillmatt Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I agree that they are very different, but they are both Neapolitan, hence a comparison seems fair. Good and bad Neapolitan, to be crude. I should add that I see quite a lot of variation even between NSM suits, judging from the pictures above. The grey and the chalk stripe seem much better than the blue three-piece.
    There are several common personalities in Naples, and I think two are manifest in the typical clothes made there. One aims to rule Scampia, the other aims to pretend Naples is still a sort of kingdom...
     
  16. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    Looks a lot like a Marigliano to me, FWIW.


    - B
     
  17. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Granted, there are hallmarks, as you point out. But the fact that I can spot a Mercedes because of the badge on its trunk lid or the ornament on its hood doesn't make such indicators significant to the style and design of the car. They are incidental in the sense that they are what Mercedes happens to slap on every model, regardless of its substantive aesthetic or functional qualities.

    So, yes, I can spot a Neapolitan jacket too. However, that doesn't mean Neapolitan jackets share a style that can be meaningfully generalized. I'd probably go to a place like Caraceni, Poole or Sedwell before turning to another Neapolitan tailor.


    Now you are just being argumentative.

    OF COURSE lapels, quarters etc. are significant to the design of the suit. The are among the primary things a person sees. They determine it's look. There is no engine inside.

    I think you are just flat wrong that no generalizations are possible. They are possible and (and others) have made them and they are accurate to what I can plainly see.

    Frankly an A&S style suit looks to my eye more substantially different from the rest of SR than one Neapolitan does from another.

    I don't know why you wouldn't go to Solito, who looks a hell of a lot Rubinacci to my eye. So does Panico.
     
  18. radicaldog

    radicaldog Senior member

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    This is a nice theory. I don't believe that it applies to NSM, though, based on the chat I had with them. Mina and Dino were dismissive of RTW Naples stuff, both in terms of representing traditional make and the overall style. I doubt that she seeks to mimic the Neiman Marcus and Barney's racks. She also seemed not to be very cognizant of what the "luxury" American chains carry. This makes sense to me.

    But, your distinction between the Attolini and Blasi historical influences might explain a lot. At least in my case, I plan to use it for stuff that is for sunnier climes, and sunnier and more casual moods. It does not bother me at all that it would have a "regional" flavor. Frankly, as someone who more often than not wears things in the A&S style, I am already guilty of wearing a niche product unlikely to give comfort to plump American worker bees.


    - B


    It seems plausible that NSM have a range of styling, from the gimmicky to the reasonable. But they do seem to go for the 'look at my Neapolitan coat' thing.

    I also said above that it's fine for casual wear. And especially summer wear, which of course makes casual even more casual.

    And I know that thankfully you wouldn't replace your Steed staples with this stuff.

    Look, at the end of the day it may just be my residual Italian snobbery.
     
  19. gomestar

    gomestar Senior member

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    There are pronounced similarities between my NSM coat and my Solito. The shape of the lapels are cut much the same, as are the swoops of the quarters and the sleeve caps. Front dart to the bottom, angled side dart, etc.

    But NSM is less draped, MUCH tighter in the waist and has a more pronounced back balance kick. The sleeves also are narrower.


    I recon my Solito is more like your NSM than your Solito.
     
  20. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Seeing belt under vest make Baby Jesus cry.
     

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