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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It's still there, but less pronounced.
     
  2. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I don't think so, but it depends on how square his shoulders naturally are. If that were me, I would say they have a little buildup, but mine really drop off. In his case, I think all you are seeing is what happens when the midline bulge ends and the main line is restored (like in Vox's case)
     
  3. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    I believe reducing the amount of padding would help a lot with the shoulder concavity; in fact my tailor's gonna try it for the next commission (adding some extension, too), and if it works, will fix this one as well. It's just MTM anyways, so there are limitations in what can be done.

    With NSM I'm not sure what causes this shoulder shape, really, since there's little to no padding. Either it's really intentional, the customer's shoulder shape, or just a problem with the shoulder seam not following the shoulder line?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  4. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I am going to get some pents from NSM on their next trip.
     
  5. _AMD

    _AMD Senior member

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    I could be wrong, but I don't think that NsM made RDiaz's jacket. I believe that it is rtw, and he was simply using it to illustrate his point.

    Aaron
     
  6. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    Yep, I just used it to illustrate the problem. It's MTM, not RTW, though.
     
  7. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    ..
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  8. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That makes more sense
    As I wrote above, putting aside the upward slope at the end, I am pretty sure the mid-shoulder bulge is a result of the design of the shoulder seam and how the difference in size between the back and the front are handled. In other words it is an artifact of an intentional technique. In my case, at least, it feels like it is glued to my back/shoulder and is unpadded from seam to seam (less shy of an inch at each end), yet it can appear to swell mid shoulder from certain angles. This is really a job for Despos/JeffreyD.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  9. _AMD

    _AMD Senior member

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    Thank you for the clarification, and sorry for my incorrect assumption/statement.

    Aaron
     
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Let's be clear: the mid-point "bulge" is not part of the problem. Any natural shoulder is likely to show some bulging of that sort. It is the inverting of the shoulder curvature, going from convex to concave, that is at issue. See here, again:

    [​IMG]

    The natural shoulder on the far left "bulges." The pa-fucked shoulder inverts.

    Dopey, check your PM.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  11. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm afraid to wade in to this mess.

    Despos said something to the effect of "He called it a very difficult technique as well as aesthetically pleasing to his eye." It should be edited to say "when correctly executed". These do not, in my opinion, look correctly executed.

    I have never seen a coat that was not made to accommodate the forward pitch of the shoulder bone, regardless of expression. The pagoda shoulder is perhaps the most extreme version of this, and is the most difficult to execute correctly, as Despos also stated. This shot of the canvas inside a Despos suit shows the "pocket" he has created for the shoulder bone. The edge to the left is the armhole and the top is the shoulder.

    [​IMG]


    There are many ways to create this pocket, and the different methods give dramatically different results (cuts, puffs, and vees in the canvas, and stretching the cloth and canvas). This pocket creates the upward curve toward the sleeve that is seen on Mina's coats- something in the way that they create this pocket makes it very pronounced, particularly from certain angles. Foo is right that the shoulder should not bump in the middle as a lot of them do, however this could be the result of a number of things so I won't speculate.
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Thank freaking god.
     
  13. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Actually, it is.
     
  14. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Then we are talking about two different symptoms, or calling the same thing by different names. My issue is with how the shoulder line converts from natural and concave to an upward sloping, concave curvature toward the sleeve.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  15. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    We are deliberately trying to create the upward and forward slope in order to create the pocket for the shoulder bone. The space between the neck and the end of the shoulder should be hollow. What you have described as the "natural and concave" is exactly the opposite of what we are trying to achieve when executing this type of shoulder. Here is a pad that may help to show the desired shape. The idea is to have the weight of the coat sit along the mid part of the shoulder, instead of sitting on the shoulder points which is uncomfortable and can make the coat feel like it wants to go backward on you.


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  16. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Thanks, Jeffrey. Would you mind explaining what we are seeing in the Despos photo a bit? It is not so easy for this non-tailor to understand exactly what he is looking at and what is being done and why.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  17. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/search/label/Despos
     
  18. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Okay, let me be clear: on virtually all Neapolitan jackets, I see what I call a "mid-shoulder bulge." The convex curvature of the shoulder typically starts off at a more gentle slope, hits the bump, than becomes more steep. Yet, the whole shoulder line is convex. It never goes concave. As here:

    [​IMG]

    In contrast, what we see on NSM jackets is a reversal or inverting of the shoulder's curvature. The jacket shoulder hits the mid-shoulder bulge, up until which point it is convex, then transitions into a concave shape. After the bump, the shoulder line sweeps upward, heading toward the scye. As so:

    [​IMG]

    It is how that area between the mid-shoulder bulge and the scye is handled that I am pointing out as problematic.
     
  19. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  20. Big A

    Big A Senior member

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    I'm cross posting this to the whnay thread - this is me in a NSM jacket.

    I'm not sure I understand the discussion RE: shoulders. As you can see here, the shoulder is pretty natural. The pleating or whatever you want to call it at the shoulder-head will cause slight "lift" or "bulge" of the sleeve top if, standing in the classic wayw full-length pose, you swing your hands back. I assumed this was a consequence of the "spalla camica" deal - the pleats (that's the wrong term, but hopefully you know what I mean) have to go somewhere.

    [​IMG]
     

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