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my visit to Napoli & Mina @ Napoli Su Misura

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Oct 31, 2010.

  1. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    stylists advisor owing a fairly new tailoring company, not tailors... I doubt the would be able to cut and sew cloth, group think on this forum does amazing stuff,

    One last diversion on trousermaker: at one point or another all the one I have mentioned may have worked withRubinacci or others, for many reasons including speed of delivery, handwork etc... Why they have been dropped or refuse working with certain places would be an interesting topics. As matter of fact, many Sartoria may outsource to two or more trousermaker at the same time. I have discussed with one his frustration and reason to stop working with a specific Sartoria as when collecting his orders after fittings, he may have got mixed trousers including one cut by others, while other tailors who he was still working with, clearly separated every trousermaker orde...
     
  2. Butler

    Butler Senior member

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    Well, in one v e r y prominent case, the reason they were dropped was because they refused to be payed by invoice - if you catch my drift - and the house in question had grown to such proportions, that they no longer could condone the old practice! :bigstar:
     
  3. The Thin Man

    The Thin Man Senior member

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    For what it's worth, it seems like mafoofan's position on this isn't as out there as you're suggesting. Manton hasn't criticized the shoulder line, but he has expressed discontent with his NSM jacket. Vox, whose choice of NSM seems to have influenced a bunch of people, praises their shirts, trousers and willingness to correct mistakes, but seems to have had problems with the jackets and particularly the shoulders.

    Certain businesses become forum sacred cows really quickly. I'm glad there is at least one iconoclast around here. I don't know if he's right about the shoulders, but I do get a sense that people have a lot invested in defending NSM.
     
  4. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Look, anybody who is going to discount my position based on who I am, how much I've bought, blah, blah, blah, is really barking up the wrong tree. I assume if you are doing so, it's because you have nothing of substance to contribute and/or have a personal problem with me. If that's not the case, you are always free to show me otherwise and talk to the discussion, not the man.

    I never asked anyone to accept my opinion on the basis of expertise or authority. I explained, reasoned, and illustrated my point. If this inverting, undulating shoulder is a legitimate style choice, as opposed to a technical error, it is a big day for the sartorial universe. After generations and generations of Neapolitan tailoring, a brand new business catering specifically to foreign customers has invented a completely new shoulder line that is so fresh it doesn't even have a name to go by. Holy crap. That is huge. Let's name it. Right now. We can all go ask our respective tailors at Rubinacci, Huntsman, Chan, etc., to execute the spalla invertente. When they look at the pictures and say it's a mistake of fit and cut, we'll just smile and gently educate them on the matter. We'll stand by and watch over our cutters as their shears abruptly slip when cutting the shoulder, as if they've just sneezed. Yet, there is no sneeze--only pure NSM/SF style. At the end, we will triumph. I know it.

    Or too many have drunk the Kool-Aid and it's just a fucked up shoulder.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  5. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Jesus, dude - just get over yourself. Your obsession with constantly arguing on the net is not just abrasive but borderline pathetic.
     
    5 people like this.
  6. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Always one of my favorites.
     
  7. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Is it more pathetic to discuss stuff on a discussion forum or whine about others discussing stuff on a discussion forum? I'd rather be known for arguing than for your hopelessly ad hominem approach. Seriously, I think you need to reassess the basis of your attitude toward me. If it surfaces in real life, you probably aren't the sort of person you'd like to see in the mirror.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  8. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    OK now that I've had a chance to read back through some of this while slightly hung over as opposed to egregiously intoxicated..


    Here's the explanation I think Derek is referring to (I changed one link for increased relevance to this thread), which pretty much mirrors the MC post that I linked to earlier:



    I meant the shoulder line, not the sleevehead.

    Couldn't agree more! I join with the other posters in this thread, who disagree with you, in appreciation of the shoulder line under discussion in its more attractive manifestations.

    Wait...why did this paragraph follow those first two sentences? Now we have to ask Mina and Dino if they meant to do something to know whether we can like it or not? Or be able to reference it in Esquire's Encylopedia? What happened to seeing for ourselves whether something looks good? Or did you mean only you can see whether something looks good?

    Look, I know that you want everybody to just agree with you that it looks terrible. I respect that you don't like it. You have clearly identified what it is you're talking about. I think everybody understands what it is you don't like about it. The discussion has been productive, for me at least, and I appreciate the time that you've devoted to explaining what you're seeing and why don't like it.

    But I'm not sure what you want to happen now...you want every NsM customer to publicly burn all their jackets that they love and then flagellate themselves while repeating, "Sono un imbecile" 1000 times over? For me personally, I don't really care whether my jackets are "genuine" or "traditional" Neapolitan style. Most of the time, I really like the NsM shoulder line. If that means that my taste is hopelessly vulgar, well, so be it. I really doubt anyone in the real world will be offended.
     
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  9. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I think that personal bickering shouldn't be in the Mina thread. The shoulder discussion is good, and in all seriousness part of why we love Style Forum. I personally like the fact that Matt is honest and gives his opinions, no matter how blunt he delivers them.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Quote:This is rich coming from you. pbooth: I agree completely, and I enjoy that Matt has an opinion that he is willing to share. However, the forum is very much a two-way street, and he should try and accept the opinion of others, rather than simply prattle on forever.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  11. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    No. The stupid thing is that this can easily be fixed--so long as NSM is willing and able. Nothing needs to be burned.

    What you don't seem to get is that liking something doesn't validate it. I haven't just indicated what I am seeing as a problem; I've also made the case it has never before been identified as a good thing to replicate and perpetuate. It has no name. It is not something anybody asks for or what any tailor would brag about. In fact, every tailor I've talked to likes to brag that they do a clean shoulder--that is regardless of the curvature, padding, etc. You want a smooth line with gentle transitions. Inverting and undulating is the opposite of clean.

    In fact, I can give some friendly advice: if you like this style of shoulder line, why bother with a traveling bespoke tailor? You are far better off ordering something MTM locally. Nine times out of ten, your shoulder line will look exactly this way. Want another surefire route? Order a natural, unpadded shoulder from Oxxford, wait for them to deliver exactly the opposite, ask them to fix it, wait for their alterations tailor to simply rip out all the padding and wadding, and voila, you will have spalla invertente.

    The natural, curved shoulder line typical of Neapolitan tailoring is one of its key attributes. If you don't like it, and want whatever it is NSM is doing, then it makes near zero sense to me why you'd use a Neapolitan tailor to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  13. Slewfoot

    Slewfoot Senior member

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    And I repeat...


     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  14. Manton

    Manton Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Just to muddy the waters ...

    Look at that vox pic in the blue suit with the clown dot tie. The right shoulder (left side in the pic) is a smooth curve. There is however a bump on the other side, resulting in a line much as foo describes.

    I have this on some of my coats. It is a the result of a prominent acromion (shoulder bone) present on the left but not on the right side. With unpadded coats, it's noticeable. Shattuck used to say he was going to take a power sander to the bone and sand it down.

    It doesn't bother me. As Alden told me long ago, unpadded bespoke shows you warts and all. If you like the comfort and freedom, you should be untroubled by that. Similarly, my dropped right shoulder is rather obvious in pics (though not IRL).

    So, the cause of some to this wonkiness could simply be cloth resting directly on bone wthout padding.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  15. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    So . . . as promised somewhere upthread, I am wearing an NSM suit today, in order to pay attention to this shoulder issue. It definitely has a sort of bump in the mid shoulder that comes and goes depending upon how I move and the angle from which I look, but I can't quite figure out how it is there or where it comes from as the coat has no padding and sits tight to my shoulder. I suspect it is deliberate and has to do with the way ease is built into the shoulder by the cutting and then shrinking of the back piece to the front as it is sewn. I don't think it is a mistake or a result of inattention. But it would take a tailor to figure that out. The neat thing about it is that it appears glued to my body so it is hard to understand what is happening. Even when I move around and adjust the angle to get the particular effect, it is still pretty hard to see.

    What all this means, I don't know, but until a tailor actually looks at one of these on a live model, and explains, technically, what is going on, I think my interest in the subject is exhausted. As I mentioned earlier, this particular suitcoat seems to elicit positive responses from people, albeit normal people, especially with regard to the shoulders, so I have no complaints.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  16. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Solito and Rubinacci also do unpadded, natural shoulders, and yet, there is no such inversion. My clavicle does show more prominently under certain lighting, when moving a particular way, and with particular jackets, but the curve of the shoulder never inverts. The mid-shoulder bump is not the issue I'm talking about. Rather, the shoulder seems to "open up" toward the arm scye.

    Dopey, Manton--I don't think your own shoulders rapidly expand in radius toward your armpits. That would be really weird. So, if your jacket is doing that, it cannot have anything to do with naturally fitting your body. Just the opposite.

    Here's a test Manton can do, since he has both NSM and Solito. Wear a Solito jacket, and feel the shoulder line just an inch or two short of the sleevehead. I bet you will find no empty space above your own shoulder (not counting the space created by extending the shoulder horizontally). Now, put on the NSM. Feel the same area. I bet you will find there is some emptiness above and perhaps in the front and back. If both jackets are unpadded, it is simply impossible for them to express such different shoulder shapes unless one does not keep as close to the body as the other.

    EDIT: By "clavicle," I mean "acromion."
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  17. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I like mine the way they are - there is nothing I want "fixed" regarding the shoulder line.

    I realize that this is your point of view. Although I now have to assume that you are completely repudiating this sentence:

    Unless by "we" you mean the "royal we" (i.e., Manton and I). [this is a joke, don't get offended]

    I think I've addressed this by saying that 1) I don't care if there is a "history" behind a shoulder type - there's a history behind spats too, but they're still weird to wear today. 2) reductioing to absurdum this argument, the discovery of a name in Italian would make you then accept the style? This seems odd.

    The Language of Menswear is important, as it defines how others interpret what you're wearing, and whether the signals you're sending are coherent. But what we're discussing here is a pretty small feature that require red lines to see with much clarity. No one is going to see you and think, "what the fuck is up with the shoulders on that guy's jacket?" At least I don't think anyone was thinking that yesterday when I was wearing this:

    [​IMG]

    I appreciate the friendly advice, but I'm really happy with this tailor (although I use others too when I want a different look). They make jackets I like for probably well less than half what those OXXfords cost, are fantastic to work with, and respond promptly and energetically to every request I make. Why mess with that?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
  18. RDiaz

    RDiaz Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    I hate using a pic of myself to illustrate things, but look at this shoulder line. The problem here is that the top of the armscye isn't located where it should, due to a prominent forward shoulder. It's a bad fit, not a feature. In the case of NSM it may be their style, but to me it comes off as shoulder twisting, which is a bad thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2013
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  19. JL724

    JL724 Senior member

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    Is your life outside the internet really that pathetic that you have this much time to sit here and argue over such stupid, trivial bullshit like the shape of a f*cking shoulder on a suit from a picture? Maybe you are a nice person in reality, but you come across as an abrasive prick on here.
     
  20. Griffyndor

    Griffyndor Senior member

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    This makes a lot of sense to me, but I still wonder whether the differences in the shoulder line from various NSM jackets is something that they control and can implement or leave out. If you like the wavy line, do you necessarily get it regardless of fabric, or is it the unintentional result of an unpadded jacket made in a (relatively) light fabric? If the latter is the case, then regardless of whether you love the shoulder or hate the shoulder, you can't control how it ends up. That to me would be problematic.
     

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