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MTO vs MTM Tuxedo

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Moustache Mike, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There is nothing wrong with that. But I like mohair for a dinner suit because it wears cooler. Generally, you will be wearing your dinner suit indoors, where the temperature is ~70 degrees, and you'll possibly need to move around and dance in it. I would only get the wool barathea if I wanted black over midnight.


    You're overthinking. You can't glean very much about a fabric from watching a movie. Amongst other variables, lighting will drastically change how something appears. You also have no idea who made the fabric. One merchant's barathea is not going to be the same as others'. Trust my original advice: don't trick yourself into thinking you can discern any meaningful differences for yourself, and go with the experience of others. You are not the first to order a bespoke tuxedo, so there is no need to approach it that way.


    Yes, the mohair/wool blends are technically baratheas, in that they are woven that way. But when people say "barathea," they typically mean 100% wool in a barathea weave. If there is mohair in it, they tend to just say "mohair."
     
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  2. GBR

    GBR Senior member

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    If you have the option of Chan or Gordon Yao (preferably) in Hong King, get bespoke from wither of them. One fitting would be good but both will make straight through with low risk.

    MTO is crap and MTM can be hard work without much guarantee of results without time to do alterations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Straight through is always a huge risk. The magic of bespoke happens at the fitting, not when measurements are taken.
     
  4. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    Ok so I decided to join the 8810 club today, though not as a tux.
     
  5. Moustache Mike

    Moustache Mike Member

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    Contacted WW Chan and said that I wanted the 8810 or something comparable in terms of quality and appearance. The following fabrics were suggested to me, however I have no way of figuring out the wool thickness (Super 100's, 130's, 150's, etc..). I want something nicer than a Super 100's wool, and I just don't know enough about these fabrics... how to they compare to the 8810 ????

    • Smith Woollens formal book:
      9800 (9oz 60% Kid Mohair, 40% Worsted)
      9803 (9/10oz 73% Worsted, 27% Mohair)
      9805 (10oz Barathea 71% Worsted, 29% Mohair)
      -Suggested by Patrick @ WW Chan-


    Thank you for the advice and assistance so far


    Respectfully,
    Moustache Mike
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    See, you're getting yourself into trouble. Just ask for 8810 exactly. If they have the Smith formal book, they can get 8810. I just spoke to Smith a few weeks ago about that same cloth on behalf of a friend, so I know they recently had it in stock.

    Also, you need to erase the whole notion of super numbers from your head. English mills/merchants don't classify cloth that way. You're barking up the wrong tree. Get the 8810.

    Can't say much just looking at the cloths you've described. I'm sure the quality is great across the board. The 9800 has a very, very high mohair content. That is likely to be very crunchy fabric, have a distinct sheen, and cost a huge premium. The other two are more like 8810 in composition, but you really can't say anything more about them than that. You cannot analyze cloth from a merely quantitative perspective.

    Is there a reason they don't suggest 8810?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
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  7. Moustache Mike

    Moustache Mike Member

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    I asked for Smith Woollen 8810 over the phone... Patrick said he would send me photo's with details about several different fabrics that are alot like the one I mentioned. Even though I asked for 8810 I was not given that option for ordering.

    I cannot find any information about Smith Woollen fabrics, I like the looks of 9803 and 9805 but if they are of a lower quality than the 8810 then I don't want them. This will likely be my only Tux so I want it to be as nice as possible, I am not concerned with the cost.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It's not a matter of quality. Like I said, the quality is probably great and just as good. They are all from Smith, after all.

    You can't judge from digital photos. The difference between two blacks or two midnight blues tend to be so marginal that they get easily lost in the translation from reality to computer screen. The lighting, the camera used, the calibration of your monitor, etc., will determine 99% of the difference you observe.

    The point is, 8810 is vouched for. People who have spent much more on their dinner suits have been using it. Trust me, it is excellent. From my understanding, it is the darkest midnight blue mohair/wool blend in the book. Just let Patrick know you want the 8810 and politely ask him to order it for you. He might be offering you the other cloths because he has them in stock and hopes you'll like them well enough.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
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  9. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    I think the differences are in the Fabric actual wave as well as the mohair %. As I said previously, the 8810 (midnight) and 8811 (black) are the same Barathea wave. The 9803 is a plain wave, I had shortlisted the same cloth (in black) with the 8811 I end up buying it. I was after the best possible match to my existing Dinner Jacket Frabric to order a new pair of trousers and a U waistcoat. At the end I settled with 8811 as under all lights condition really matched my Jacket material, ven though the mini barathea wave was slightly thicker then my existing jacket. They are both great fabrics and very similar, so the difference is only in the wave "texture" effect, 8810 has some, the other is a plain wave and has not got any...

    I would not have cared less who else use it or vouch for it, it was simply the best match between all the fabric I had compared to my dinner Jacket from H&S, H Lesser, Drapers and Smith.
     
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  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Marco, he doesn't have the benefit of experience. That's why it's better for him to go with what others vouch for, as opposed to what he can feel on his own. As you know, it takes a lot of time and exposure to get a sense for these things.

    Barathea is the most classic weave for a dinner jacket. He wants midnight blue. Smith's formal book is a standard-bearer. That's why I think the 8810 is ideal.
     
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  11. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    I just want to make a note to the OP that the kind of fabrics the forum likes are not the most soft, silky and luxurious. Instead, we prefer fabrics that have body, drape well, hold the crease and get better with age. However they tend then to have a rougher hand.

    If you require soft, silky and luxurious feeling fabric you might want to look elsewhere.
     
  12. Moustache Mike

    Moustache Mike Member

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    I have a Jack Victor suit made from Super 100's wool, the fabric and its weave have a very rough texture is there is nothing soft about it. I don't want a 200's super silky fabric, something that has body and drapes well, as well as holding a crease is important to me... I just don't want my Tux to have the same kind of rough feeling to it as my suits.

    I may be new to all this, but I'm sure there has to be a happy compromise between Drape/Body and Soft/Luxurious [​IMG]

    Are implying that the 8810 is a rough looking and feeling fabric ?
     
  13. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    8810 is not rough looking or feeling. Poorsod is giving you a general disclaimer. Mohair imparts a very dry, crisp finish.
     
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  14. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    I was giving a disclaimer because I was hoping to establish your expectations. When mentioned your interest in Super #'s I got the impression that you thought that the higher the Super # the better the cloth and the smoother the fabric the better the cloth. After all, these days Super # cloths are being marketed as the higher the number, the better the cloth. The super # is only 1 dimension in describing the wool. Here is a video describing other aspects such as length, strength, crimp, and luster and why they are important.

    [VIDEO][/VIDEO]
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
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  15. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This is too much information! He doesn't have time to learn all this before he has to order the cloth. I was trying to make it stupid simple.
     
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  16. poorsod

    poorsod Senior member

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    I don't know about you but when I was first starting out in bespoke I had the impression that softer material was intrinsically better and that the suit's shape and performance could be sorted out with tailoring. If my first bespoke suit turned out coarser to touch than readily available S120-150 RTW, I would wonder if I had been cheated or lied to. My first bespoke suit was a S150's Charles Clayton from Chan. It still feels great but doesn't look nearly as nice as some of my other suits.
     
  17. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Somewhat similar story on my end. When I first got into tailored clothes, I didn't know much about cloth. So, it was hard for me to guage anything without reference to RTW. But that's exactly why I'm trying to guide the OP to a decision he won't later regret.
     
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  18. Victor Elfo

    Victor Elfo Senior member

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    Great job, Foo. This is the best participation that I've ever saw from you in a thread, polite and instructive. I'm learning a lot from the informations shared here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
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  19. Moustache Mike

    Moustache Mike Member

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    8810 is NOT in the new Smith Woollen Formal Book that WW Chan recently replaced their older book with, that is the reason why it was not suggested. They are checking to see if the 8810 is still being made, and if they can order it. The next hurdle is seeing if a source for Midnight Grosgrain Silk can be tracked down...

    ( I'm shooting for Midnight Blue Grosgrain Lapel facings and bowtie, don't care if folks think its crazy... I've seen it before and it's 100% sharper than the standard black on blue look imho )
     
  20. marcodalondra

    marcodalondra Senior member

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    I selected and bought my 8811 and seen all the others fabric in Smith formal book @ Smith HO location, very recently. I suspect WW Chan has an edited book of fabric they wish to order. I have seen tailors with such books
     

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