Movie - Loose Change - 9/11 Exposed

[VMan]

Hey all,

Didn't know whether to post this in Entertainment/Culture or Politics, but in any case, I feel this is a film that everyone should watch. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, nor am I one of those people obsessed with 9/11 and terrorism, but this film really changed how I view things, and it is something everyone should see. Extremely eye opening. You can watch the movie for free on Google Video; it's an hour and twenty minutes but definitely worth it.

Here is the video.

Here is the site.

 

[tiger02]

I'd like to go watch it but can't stream video on a gov't computer...or is that just more evidence?

Before you go changing your life, keep in mind that every 9-11 conspiracy theory out there has been totally trashed. I'm not saying this one will be as well, just that it has a hard road in front of it. Remember, the guy that gets pinned with the blame is usually considered a blithering idiot...

Tom

 

[VMan]

Originally Posted by tiger02

I'd like to go watch it but can't stream video on a gov't computer...or is that just more evidence?

Before you go changing your life, keep in mind that every 9-11 conspiracy theory out there has been totally trashed. I'm not saying this one will be as well, just that it has a hard road in front of it. Remember, the guy that gets pinned with the blame is usually considered a blithering idiot...

Tom

If you go to the second link, there is a section called 'Evidence'. Go to that, and then at the bottom of the page you will see 'timeline', 'pentagon', 'wtc', etc. Each one of those opens up a section on that topic - basically just outlining the main points of the film. Trust me - normally I do not buy into conspiracy theories, but the evidence seems overwhelming.

 

[globetrotter]

I watched it. Sorry, VG, I found it entertaining, but I didn't find the evidence overwhelming.

I find a couple of major problems with these theories

1. there is this whole idea that one or two of the crashes were not actually hijacked planes. I don't think that anybody suggests that none of the planes were highjacked, or none of the crashes were caused by hijacked planes, but that one or two weren't. so, who does that work? on the day that 2 planes are hijacked, the government immidiatly launches 2 cruise missles to fake two additional hijackings?

2. I simply can't imagine that it would be possible to put together the number of people needed to take part in these conspiracies, all of whom are trimed military operatives, who would be willing to kill a few thousand american civillians, and who would then all keep quiet for 5 years. I honstly don't think it would have been possible to put together a conspiracy to kill JFK because of that, I certainly don't think that the numbers needed for this could have been put together.

3. a lot of weight is put on the rubble at the pentagon, how it doens't look like it should, in a case like this. but there has never been a case where a 757, almost full of fuel, running at full speed, crashes in to a heavily re-inforced building. I have no problem believing that the plane would be vaporized. I have no problem believing that the plane wasn't vaporized. there is nobody on earth who could have told you, on sept 10th 2001, exactly what would happen in this instance.

 

[dah328]

So the same government that couldn't even cover up an office burglary in 1972 managed to pull off a complex attack on American soil for unknown reasons while arousing suspicions only among the usual conspiracy theorists. If they're that good, they almost deserve to get away with it.

 

[VMan]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

I watched it. Sorry, VG, I found it entertaining, but I didn't find the evidence overwhelming.

I find a couple of major problems with these theories

1. there is this whole idea that one or two of the crashes were not actually hijacked planes. I don't think that anybody suggests that none of the planes were highjacked, or none of the crashes were caused by hijacked planes, but that one or two weren't. so, who does that work? on the day that 2 planes are hijacked, the government immidiatly launches 2 cruise missles to fake two additional hijackings?

2. I simply can't imagine that it would be possible to put together the number of people needed to take part in these conspiracies, all of whom are trimed military operatives, who would be willing to kill a few thousand american civillians, and who would then all keep quiet for 5 years. I honstly don't think it would have been possible to put together a conspiracy to kill JFK because of that, I certainly don't think that the numbers needed for this could have been put together.

3. a lot of weight is put on the rubble at the pentagon, how it doens't look like it should, in a case like this. but there has never been a case where a 757, almost full of fuel, running at full speed, crashes in to a heavily re-inforced building. I have no problem believing that the plane would be vaporized. I have no problem believing that the plane wasn't vaporized. there is nobody on earth who could have told you, on sept 10th 2001, exactly what would happen in this instance.

Good points. I think the point with #1 that the video was trying to make was that none of the planes were hijacked by terrorists. It was implying that two of the 'crashes' weren't the result of planes (the one that was brought down in the countryside, and the Pentagon attack). They even said how two of the planes that 'crashed' (not the two that hit the towers) were still registered and functioning. It has nothing to do with outside terrorism from Arabs; rather, it was an attack launched by the government. Evidence for this lies in the fact that the government has not fully stated who was flying the planes - sure they have names, but what about the part that showed 9 or so of the 'hijackers' were still alive and well, and had nothing at all to do with this.

#2 - don't the benefits outweigh the costs? As sick as it is to say...look at all the things that have come out of 9-11. People are afraid of terrorism, and do what the government says. Decreased civil liberties laws, government has more control. War in Iraq - oil. Construction contracts, rebuilding industries. $168 billion in gold missing from the WTC (something like only $250 million was recovered, and found hidden inside a box truck). Insurance money from the WTC. Lots of incriminating electronic data and evidence destroyed.

#3 - a fully loaded 757 crashes into a building and makes a 16' hole? No wreckage on the ground at all, yet they are able to identify 184 bodies? No titanium alloy engines, yet wooden cable spools are untouched? No video released.

Again, not to criticize, but I just find this an interesting topic to debate. Of course, nobody knows for sure what happened besides the top officials.

 

[CTGuy]

I've watched these before in several forms. I am not so sure I believe what the video is saying, although it certainly makes me very interested.

I think it's reasonable to believe that the public is not getting the full story of 9/11 and probably never will without necessarily buying into the "conspiracy" version pushed by this video.

 

[VMan]

Originally Posted by dah328

So the same government that couldn't even cover up an office burglary in 1972 managed to pull off a complex attack on American soil for unknown reasons while arousing suspicions only among the usual conspiracy theorists. If they're that good, they almost deserve to get away with it.

99% of Americans are idiots though, and listen to whatever the media tells them. I agree that it would be a very complex plan...but unfeasable?

 

[VMan]

Originally Posted by CTGuy

I've watched these before in several forms. I am not so sure I believe what the video is saying, although it certainly makes me very interested.

I think it's reasonable to believe that the public is not getting the full story of 9/11 and probably never will without necessarily buying into the "conspiracy" version pushed by this video.

Well yeah, obviously the version of the story that the government is telling us is inaccurate, and this video is at the other end of the extreme. What really happened is somewhere in the middle.

Again, I don't look at this as a conspiracy theory. I'd encourage anyone to watch the video for the hard evidence they give, and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Aaron]

Originally Posted by VersaceMan

Evidence for this lies in the fact that the government has not fully stated who was flying the planes - sure they have names, but what about the part that showed 9 or so of the 'hijackers' were still alive and well, and had nothing at all to do with this.

#2 - don't the benefits outweigh the costs? As sick as it is to say...look at all the things that have come out of 9-11. People are afraid of terrorism, and do what the government says. Decreased civil liberties laws, government has more control. War in Iraq - oil. Construction contracts, rebuilding industries. $168 billion in gold missing from the WTC (something like only $250 million was recovered, and found hidden inside a box truck). Insurance money from the WTC. Lots of incriminating electronic data and evidence destroyed.

#3 - a fully loaded 757 crashes into a building and makes a 16' hole? No wreckage on the ground at all, yet they are able to identify 184 bodies? No titanium alloy engines, yet wooden cable spools are untouched? No video released.
Just to procrastinate while I should be writing essays I'll weigh in...

#1 - I don't really buy the argument that this guy has found these "hijackers" alive and well living abroad. All over the world there are people with similar names, no matter what the culture.

#2 - I highly doubt the benefits outweigh the costs. Like Globe said beforehand, the sheer number of people (throughout government agencies who traditionally don't communicate well, not to mention those outside government) needed to organize something on this scale is highly improbable. There needs to be a clear incentive for these people to commit the time and energy to do something like this (covertly no less). A "psychological attack" on the American people just doesn't seem worthwhile enough. Not to mention the punishment if something went wrong...

I will agree with you that 9/11 has given the current administration an opportunity to put into action an economic, social, and political agenda that suits them with virtually no thorough questioning of whether their actions will improve the country now and in the future. As for the whole gold thing, I don't even think the entire US gold reserve is $168 billion.

#3 - I found a lot of stuff about buliding implosion and how an airplane crash is supposed to look a bit of a stretch. To my knowledge there has never been a test of a fully fueled large jet liner crashing into a large free-standing structure. So why should we assume the parameters for that type of crash to be similar to other plane crashes?

Alright back to work...

A.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by VersaceMan

Good points. I think the point with #1 that the video was trying to make was that none of the planes were hijacked by terrorists. It was implying that two of the 'crashes' weren't the result of planes (the one that was brought down in the countryside, and the Pentagon attack). They even said how two of the planes that 'crashed' (not the two that hit the towers) were still registered and functioning. It has nothing to do with outside terrorism from Arabs; rather, it was an attack launched by the government. Evidence for this lies in the fact that the government has not fully stated who was flying the planes - sure they have names, but what about the part that showed 9 or so of the 'hijackers' were still alive and well, and had nothing at all to do with this.

#2 - don't the benefits outweigh the costs? As sick as it is to say...look at all the things that have come out of 9-11. People are afraid of terrorism, and do what the government says. Decreased civil liberties laws, government has more control. War in Iraq - oil. Construction contracts, rebuilding industries. $168 billion in gold missing from the WTC (something like only $250 million was recovered, and found hidden inside a box truck). Insurance money from the WTC. Lots of incriminating electronic data and evidence destroyed.

#3 - a fully loaded 757 crashes into a building and makes a 16' hole? No wreckage on the ground at all, yet they are able to identify 184 bodies? No titanium alloy engines, yet wooden cable spools are untouched? No video released.

Again, not to criticize, but I just find this an interesting topic to debate. Of course, nobody knows for sure what happened besides the top officials.


1. if none of the planes were hijacked, does that mean that the familes of the 300 or so people on the planes are in on it?

2. sure, the benifits may or may not outweight the costs. how do you find the hundreds, if not thousands of people, all skilled enough in their areas, most of whom may have taken decades of dedication to acheive this skill level, who are willing to take part in the conspiracy and then able to shut up about it for 5 years? look at it this way - I know that a lot of civillians like to think that the military is full of evil people, but the people who dedicate their lives to the military are basically good people who believe in something. the vast majority of members of this conspiracy would have to be members of the military. so how do you get thousands of members of the military to agree to be involved in killing american civillians, and then shut up about it? or, not everyone who would be approached as to join to conspiracy would actually join. so how come noone has come forward and said that he was asked to join a consipiracy, declined to join and now he realizes what the idea was.

3. my understanding is that the 184 bodies were bodies in the building. concievably, we do not know, that includes bodies of people who were hundreds of feet away and were strick by debris. I agree that is is strange, but look at this example - take a clip of M-16 rounds. fire a half dozen into a good sized pig. fire a half dozen into a plastic barrel of water. fire a half dozen into a cinder block. compare them with the complete rounds. the solid cone of metal will be now a little shred of foil, in a wide variety of shapes. the rounds fired into the pig, depending on where they hit, will all look vastly different. same with the others. now think about a thin shell of aluminum, holding several dozen tons of highly explosive fuel, traveling at 500 miles per hour and hitting a solid reinforced wall.
another thing that strikes me about the movie - just asmall example - they talk about the engine being made of steel, aluminum and titanium. then they continue to talk about the engine as though it is made of solid titanium. it wasn't - we don't know how much titanium there actually was. and, yes, the burning temperature of jet fuel is lower than the melting point of titanium, but first of all melting points change with changes in pressure, if I remember correctly, and burning temperatures change with changes in pressure, and when oxegyn is added directly, if I remember correctly, and, most importantly, the kenetic energy of a hundred tons hitting a solid wall at 500 mph has to have created some flash of energy. I have no idea what the effect of this would be, but I think that it is fair to say that the results would be unexpected, or unusual, to say the least.

 

[chorse123]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

 

[Saucemaster]

In the interests of full disclosure: I love conspiracy theories as a sort of fictional art form--they're exhilarating--but I simply find them incredibly improbable, and generally scoff at them. In fact, the improbability is a large part of the exhilaration. So I'm naturally skeptical of things like this.

But, because this interested me, I did do a little googling. http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/g...se_change.html has a little essay by *another* 9/11 conspiracy theorist who nevertheless persuasively disagrees with the Loose Change guys.

Don't take my citing of that particular essay as evidencing my support for 9/11 conspiracy theories, of course--I have never seen compelling reason to discount the standard explanation of 9/11. I just thought that it would be interesting to see what problems people have with Loose change even when they're motivated to believe it.

I do like it as an example of the "art of paranoia" that is being discussed in a different thread, though! Which I guess explains why I was addicted to X-Files, and am now addicted to Lost....

 

[Brian SD]

and am now addicted to Lost....

Offtopic for a moment. I am too. Last episode was a good one. Things are starting to get less foggy, especially now that we know the others are "fake," and since that parachute of **** just landed, there are people who are aware that there are people still on the island. Maybe the protaganists, maybe the others. Also, starting to think that the timer with the button pushing was a game to keep the people from finding things like the map on the wall and other secrets. From the very beginning I didnt think that anything necessarily bad would happen if the timer went to 0.

 

[Saucemaster]

Originally Posted by Brian SD

Offtopic for a moment. I am too. Last episode was a good one. Things are starting to get less foggy, especially now that we know the others are "fake," and since that parachute of **** just landed, there are people who are aware that there are people still on the island. Maybe the protaganists, maybe the others. Also, starting to think that the timer with the button pushing was a game to keep the people from finding things like the map on the wall and other secrets. From the very beginning I didnt think that anything necessarily bad would happen if the timer went to 0.

Oh man, we need to start an official Lost thread! Have you seen the stuff on the web where people freeze-framed an HD image of the map, then inverted the colors and sharpened it so that you can read literally everything? If that map is accurate, it provides a lot of completely fascinating info. I'll link you to two images, but if you're the type that hates spoilers of any sort and wants to be surprised later, you probably don't want to click on them....

Most of the map, color inverted/etc: http://www.thetailsection.com/upload...all-748621.jpg

The map overlaid with typed versions of the scribbled notes: http://lost.cubit.net/pics/2x17/blastDoorMapOverlay.jpg