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Count de Monet

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Are kings Southern Trad?

King Carlos III of Spain, who was king when Los Angeles was founded in 1781 and who ended the Spanish Inquisition much to the dismay of some "Monty Python" fans and I at the Old Plaza (where Los Angeles was founded) across the street from what I still call the Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal.

View attachment 786545

NO-body expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Nice suit, by the way.
 

am55

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I appreciate that. I've never been a pocket square guy. I'm open minded, and even have a small stash. But every time I've put one in my pocket, I yanked it right back out after looking in the mirror.

I'm out dressing most of my peers simply by wearing a coat and tie, so a pocket square quickly crosses the line of blatant affectation most of the time.
This is not about trad or not trad, but personally I almost see it the other way. I feel like without a square (always a white TV fold, though - I'm very boring) the suit is not complete, just as an open shirt with a jacket feels a little empty and out of the shape and structure that the knot would have provided.

The exception is when I need to fit in, for example when I used to work in corporate I wouldn't have worn a square in an environment where nobody else does and it sticks out from the unspoken uniform. In such an environment the old-fashioned low gorge of the jacket posted earlier (sans square) would also have stood out.

In a modern smart casual office, culturally, to wear the square makes you "someone who cares about fashion, which is why he's wearing a suit". It's a conscious decision that people can appreciate and respect, just as you'd respect that someone likes to go kayaking or amateur acting as part of who they are. Whereas just wearing a tie in a no-tie-but-we-wear-jackets environment feels like one-upping colleagues on purpose. But these things vary geographically and between professions, industries, etc...

The Intern got it right. De Niro's character is very formally dressed for his office yet his charming and patient ways allow him to fit in just fine.

I'm aware that my perspective is very European/APAC and the US does things differently. Just presenting an alternative POV.
 

MoneyWellSpent

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The exception is when I need to fit in, for example when I used to work in corporate I wouldn't have worn a square in an environment where nobody else does and it sticks out from the unspoken uniform. In such an environment the old-fashioned low gorge of the jacket posted earlier (sans square) would also have stood out.

I quoted the part that most directly applies to my situation.

So while I would frequently fall into the better dressed half, and possibly even the best dressed in the room often times, I am not the only one to be found in coat and tie. So, I avoid looking like a true "hobbyist" since I'm not wearing anything truly unorthodox for my environment.

However, I do seek to perfect fit, color combinations, and employ interesting texture variation and seasonality (an ongoing journey of course :hide:). These things can effectively make one stand out in a positive way without necessarily drifting into the territory of looking like someone who cares "too much", which I hate to say, is not readily accepted where I live. I do consider myself a hobbyist, but I prefer to fall into the group that is well dressed without the onlookers being able to pinpoint why. They simply see a pleasing combination without being distracted by it. It is not my goal to be known as the guy who cares too much about clothes.

As I said, I'm open minded and do own some squares, but at this point it is still the only piece I still struggle to wear confidently for concern mentioned above.

I also agree that a well employed square can contribute much to the combination, but I think it always crosses the line of identifying you as a clothes hobbyist. It is probably just one step down from wearing a fedora. Men simply don't consider them part of the uniform anymore, and so they have a jarring effect on those who care nothing about clothes. Coat and tie on the other hand is still a standard in the closet of all men, it is simply a question of how often they wear them and what occasions they deem "formal" enough. Certainly, a well selected square is less jarring and more harmonious than a poorly selected one. But, I would argue that they are always jarring in an environment where one can go a month without seeing them on anybody (except the TV news anchor).
 

Caustic Man

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Im not sure I'd say they are "always" jarring in the situations you speak of. We all live in a similar environment to some degree and I think a discreet white linen PS in a TV fold is something people hardly notice. But generally speaking, yes, I agree. Especially offensive (most of the time) is when the tie and PS are the only patterns present. It can be done well, but often goes awry.
 

smittycl

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I quoted the part that most directly applies to my situation.

So while I would frequently fall into the better dressed half, and possibly even the best dressed in the room often times, I am not the only one to be found in coat and tie. So, I avoid looking like a true "hobbyist" since I'm not wearing anything truly unorthodox for my environment.

However, I do seek to perfect fit, color combinations, and employ interesting texture variation and seasonality (an ongoing journey of course :hide:). These things can effectively make one stand out in a positive way without necessarily drifting into the territory of looking like someone who cares "too much", which I hate to say, is not readily accepted where I live. I do consider myself a hobbyist, but I prefer to fall into the group that is well dressed without the onlookers being able to pinpoint why. They simply see a pleasing combination without being distracted by it. It is not my goal to be known as the guy who cares too much about clothes.

As I said, I'm open minded and do own some squares, but at this point it is still the only piece I still struggle to wear confidently for concern mentioned above.

I also agree that a well employed square can contribute much to the combination, but I think it always crosses the line of identifying you as a clothes hobbyist. It is probably just one step down from wearing a fedora. Men simply don't consider them part of the uniform anymore, and so they have a jarring effect on those who care nothing about clothes. Coat and tie on the other hand is still a standard in the closet of all men, it is simply a question of how often they wear them and what occasions they deem "formal" enough. Certainly, a well selected square is less jarring and more harmonious than a poorly selected one. But, I would argue that they are always jarring in an environment where one can go a month without seeing them on anybody (except the TV news anchor).

I work in an environment where suits are required five days a week with no Casual Friday allowed. I think I'm the only one in the building that wears a PS and it's always a linen TV-fold. I usually don't wear one for large meetings with outsiders. I like your analysis on standing out in subtle ways without being ostentatious. I find it easy to deploy plaid suits, blends and the occasional sport coat/dress pants combo. Bold ties also work well IMHO. ;)
 

MoneyWellSpent

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I work in an environment where suits are required five days a week with no Casual Friday allowed. I think I'm the only one in the building that wears a PS and it's always a linen TV-fold. I usually don't wear one for large meetings with outsiders. I like your analysis on standing out in subtle ways without being ostentatious. I find it easy to deploy plaid suits, blends and the occasional sport coat/dress pants combo. Bold ties also work well IMHO. ;)

It is definitely true for me as well. Changing up patterns and textures is often interesting even to the clothes drones who seek to get into their t-shirts and flip flops as soon as they leave the office. But the "extra" pieces usually only invite looks and judgements of trying too hard rather than being positively stylish. For me, clothing should be appealing to the onlooker In your particular environment. While it is occasionally true that one simply needs to break through the initial wall to make it apparent that clothes matter us, it isn't always so.

This isn't to say that one shouldn't dress for themselves first, but we can't forget the maxim that we are seeking to draw positive attention up to our face rather than down and away from it either. Subculture within certain geograpic areas of the country has a large impact on what is distracting and what isn't.
 

Caustic Man

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So I think what I'm wearing today is a pretty good example of being understated and subtle.
:hide:

IMG_4102.JPG IMG_4106.JPG
 

starro

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Continuing the PS discussion, I wonder how many of you gents who get your jackets custom made ever had one made without breast pocket. My understanding is that the visible hanky on breast only became a thing in the 20s, and only for lounge suits. So there's certainly an argument to be had that no breast pocket is more formal.

I got a charcoal, navy, and pinstripes suits made that way, and I think they are perfect for those occasions where one needs to be business formal, and not at all dandyish. All of which is to say they are straying as far away from trad as possible.
 

Caustic Man

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I would wear a jacket without a breast pocket not at all. Besides, I am one of those people who thinks that formality does not exist on a spectrum (an opinion I am sometimes inconsistent about). The very term "formal" implies a specific form, or regularity, to the look. In other words, there is Formal and Not Formal. There is no less formal/more formal, etc. All of this to make the point that the formal attire has a breast pocket and that is that. On the other hand military mess-dress, the equivalent of white tie, has no breast pocket. So there is that.
 

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