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Mod to Suedehead

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by Spirit of 69, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. roytonboy

    roytonboy Senior member

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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  2. Gsvs5

    Gsvs5 Senior member

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    I've been looking for that photo again Little Queenie ! It perfectly illustrates my point about how fresh and bright the look was/could be compared to what we usually see from future generations.
    They also look about the same age as I was in '69.You said Northern Lads.Where abouts?
    Take away the boots and braces and again three out of the four could pass as Mod to me.Semantics I know.;)
    Funny that you say the dividing line was just South of Stoke,as that's exactly my home ground.My music tastes were rooted firmly in the North and my dress sense heavily influenced from the South.I still have not read every post on the Forum (I like to save a little chocolate for later) and yet I do see repetition.That's inevitable and i am as guilty as the next.My only wish is that the snide remarks and "me too" were edited out sometimes as there is quite a bit of crap under the gravy.
    Regarding the recent drawings……The artist has submitted some great photos over this Forum,but I do not personally care for the style of the drawing.
    Am I the only one who felt insulted by the Dick Emery sketches and caricatures of a style and era that was so important to me? I really dislike anything that lampoons,satirizes and diminshes it.
    I think that may in some regards have been the catalyst for it's demise and poor interpretation from future adoptees.Sorry MOM but if I were to see a book cover with a caricature of a Skinhead on it ,I would never pick it up.As for the accuracy of the drawings? Well,there were a lot of real life "mistakes" walking up and down the country. but the white boots with the sheepskin made me wince.
     
  3. Gsvs5

    Gsvs5 Senior member

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    There was a well known lad, Will from Dudley that came to hang around with us that dressed exactly like that (minus the scarf).
     
  4. Gsvs5

    Gsvs5 Senior member

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    Happy Birthday,you've obviously raised your boy well ,roytonboy.15 and not going to Clubs? Maybe that's where I went astray and now pay the price [​IMG] When I look back on it ,I really do wonder how we were allowed to do it ?Travelling around on late night busses etc.I also used to hitch a lot as a teenager.I wouldn't dream of it now,nor would I pick anyone up.
     
  5. Bob the Badger

    Bob the Badger Senior member

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    The Dick Emery sketch was particularly poor. The show needed a lot of canned laughter to tell the audience when to laugh.I never connected the sketch with the scene I was involved with but I suppose the general public did..
     
  6. Bob the Badger

    Bob the Badger Senior member

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    When did others start going to clubs and pubs? In 1969 our unofficial school leaving do in Essex was held at lunch time in a pub. We were all 15 or 16 and all the 5th year went. It didn't seem unusual at the time and we went back to school to say goodbye to the teachers and they didn't seem to mind that we had been drinking.Many of us were pub regulars. Ilford Palais used to run a Saturday afternoon dancehall event for 13/14 year olds in 66/67 and we all went, suitably dressed up. It was good marketing because by 15/16 many of us graduated to going there on a Saturday/Sunday night, drinking in the bars, and again suited up..
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  7. Gsvs5

    Gsvs5 Senior member

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    The 'Bovver Boys', also referred to as 'skinheads' grabbed media attention in the UK through the 1970s mostly as a result of hooliganism during football matches. Their style of dress mainly consisted of fitted Ben Sherman or Fred Perry sports shirts, straight leg denims either cut short or turned up to reveal their boots which were made by Dr Martens (also referred to as Doc Martens or DMs). Their hair, as the term 'skinhead' suggests, was close cropped with no greater than a number 2 guard. Dick Emery's character was actually an updated version of an earlier young juvenile delinquent, the Teddy Boy, and was created during the 'Grand Prix' special. Originally, he was intended to be an experiment in a type of 'candid camera' sequence where Emery, in character wandered around a Cambridge market. Unfortunately, technical difficulties meant filming had to be abandoned and the sequence never got to the screen.

    While Emery used the character for comedic effect he made it quite clear that he had little sympathy for the fellow:

    "The only way he and his kind can draw themselves the attention they crave in the face of indifference and rejection is to resort to a group identity and commit petty acts of senseless violence. And the press and media play a major part in encouraging them by satisfying the desire to be noticed and reporting the extent of the damage and trouble caused.

    At last, the Bovver Boys have produced a reaction from an otherwise preoccupied society."
     
  8. Mr Knightley

    Mr Knightley Senior member

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    Quote:I'll take Dandy! Beaudelaire memorably wrote of course that a dandy aspirant must have "no profession other than elegance... no other status, but that of cultivating the idea of beauty in their own persons... The dandy must aspire to be sublime without interruption; he must live and sleep before a mirror." Not a bad way of life. Fop - hmm.....
     
  9. roytonboy

    roytonboy Senior member

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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  10. Mr Knightley

    Mr Knightley Senior member

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    Quote:A safe assumption I'd say...... The Dandy was not unlike the skinhead in some ways - he may look fussy to our eyes but was pioneering a new pared-back look of course and I believe often got involved in a bit of a scrap because he was outside the mainstream. Familiar.
     
  11. roytonboy

    roytonboy Senior member

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    I first went to a soul club when I had just turned 16 and immediately became a regular. Prior to that it had been local youth clubs. There was also a night club in Oldham town centre (The Cat's Whiskers) that did an under 18s night during the week. I went there occasionally, when I was 15 and 16. Trouble there was if you looked 'too skinhead' they wouldn't let you in - I remember being turned away once, despite being in a blazer and trousers (OK. they were POW check, so maybe I should have known better). I remember a group of us skipping school at lunch time to go to the pub on the last day of term Christmas 1970, again soon after my 16th birthday, but that was a rarity for me. Three of the lads in my class became regulars at lunchtime and were eventually expelled from school because of it.
     
  12. buttons

    buttons Senior member

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    Well, I'd written off this place as dead and buried but it appears a few choice posters have breathed the life back into it again. It’s been a while so forgive me if I’m a little out of sync.

    After we passed page 1000 or so, there must have been at least 60 pages with no skinhead chat at all. I know things need to wander off course a little now and then to bring back some memories from the deep; but it got to the stage where it was just old people talking about what non-skinhead coat they'd seen, what non-skinhead shoes were good for the winter and what non-skinhead opinions they had on things. All very irrelevant and difficult reading – I still have the teeth marks in me knuckles. It was often like standing next to two blokes at an allniter that have had too many green and clears - they both ran out of stuff to say hours ago but insist on saying it anyway.
    But enough of that and down to business.

    North South differences - well or course there were but it’s not two camps of original skinhead as you'll get variations from all towns. London / non-London would be closer (yet also inaccurate) but there were still variations across the capital as many of you have mentioned.
    There's a few important things that seem to get ignored when the topic is discussed.
    1. The skinhead look, that evolved out of Mod, did so in London and other places at the same time, all before the name was pinned to it.

    2. Much of the look originated in the capital but what you find in many 'other towns' is that they weren't just copying London and being a bit shit at it. Some were, but on the whole, it was just different. Evolution. If there were a gang of skinheads in Glasgow, it would be very short-sighted to dismiss them as ‘not skinhead’ or irrelevant, purely because of a lack of a home-counties accent and a different cut of their suits.

    3. London was where the smartest skinheads came from and everyone else was scruffy and backward? Come on, if you think that, go back to school and do your o-level history again. There were smart lads, scruffy lads, hard lads, leaders and followers wherever you went. Just cos you've seen a picture of a London skinhead in a suit and a Stoke lad in jeans doesn't mean either is representative of a whole region. You need to look at more than one book, website, forum, skinhead do etc to get a fuller picture. “I met a skinhead once, who didn’t like blacks. Therefore all skinheads must be racists”. Really?

    4. 'Skinhead' as in the tagged fashion or youth culture of '69 London lasted a brief few months as once the papers announced it, the older lads were already changing their hair and clothes to distance themselves from the crowds of uniformed kids. The look AND the name lasted longer elsewhere, thus allowing more time for the style to mature, sometimes for the better and worse.
    This also explains things that were produced for the skinhead market by the time some cockneys had moved on to longer haired things (two tone Levis, POW and tonic harringtons, multiple makes of check button downs etc).

    5. (I know I'm repeating what I and others have said but.....) There's a big difference between "skinheads never wore that" and "I never saw any skinheads wearing that". It’s come round and round for years on here. I don't care if you went to a few away matches or your mam had a caravan in Cornwall ... no one saw it all (and some of what you did see could have been quite misleading)


    And on a few other notes, the two tone Levi sta press (widely available, not just in Bristol) were obviously later and a different cut to the (often off white) ones of '69 (which again were different from what they making in '68 and '67). They weren’t for sale in Village Gate in the summer of ’69, partly because Levi hadn’t made them yet.

    Jim Fergusson’s fashion note book. Yeah, it’s not a complete view of the nation as a whole and compared to some people's experiences, it’s a bit off on dates, haircuts and finer details. It’s the opinions and memories of a few people for the sake of putting a book together. The text that goes with it is an essential part of the document as well as the (very well drawn) illustrations. If there were ten skinhead books by different people, all doing the same thing, they would have differed. But it was the only one, at that time, of that ilk. I'm sure he didn't claim it was the definitive guide. I reckon a pretty well put together small piece of a very large jigsaw.

    As for our Dutch friend with the digital artwork, who I've met a few times and he's a canny lad.... If it was my book, I'd go for something more traditional, where photos didn't suffice. I (regrettably) can't draw as well as Mr Fergusson, but it depends on what you're trying to get across as to how good an artist is required. Having said that, I'm not sure if there's a 'need' for a book at all, but that's another discussion.

    (If I was drawing some skinheads, I wouldn’t forget the) Buttons
     
  13. loempiavreter

    loempiavreter Senior member

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    Shit hit the fan :)

    Don't get me wrong, I was not slagging of anyone outside London at all. We all know those leather or suede levi trucker jackets don't come cheap. Today you seem to pay just about the same for one such jacket as you'd would for a bespoke suit, I don't know if that was the same in the 60s, but I do know they cost an arm and a leg. And yes both sides are just a caricature, you just don't have the space to cram everything that went on. But I will say this I've never had the intent to use it as the cover of the book, if MoM wants to, that's alright by me. But i've been drawing this in a comic book style, It's not really meant to be in front of a serious documentary-style writing, i would rather see some proper graphic design there, Like the Paint House gang did it or Generation X, both fairly well designed book covers if I may say so:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    My piece is more for fun and more influenced by comic book like the originals (science fiction version of the Mod story... samey like what Clockwork Orange did with Skinhead) by Dave Gibbons.
    [​IMG]

    @Queeny The lad in the sheepskin is wearing petrol blue needlecords. Now I don't know if that even existed in this color back in the day (they do have now). But I did hear about petrol blue mohair trousers in combination with sheepskin, that's why I wanted to use the color.


    They are not boots but plimsols, white canvas shoes... Actually the inspiration to do sheepskin, cords and white canvas shoes comes from this picture from the Twisted Wheel, so the source of influence came from North, but it's something I would imagine happening down south as well.
    [​IMG]

    As for those kids, they are Newcastle lads, and this is what I've been meaning to ask. Newcastle seems exempt from all the video and photographic evidences of the "denim" look. Just look at this photo, and i'm curious to your opinion as well @Roytonboy would you say these lads are skinheads in your book? Did you see stuff like Sheepskins, Crombies, macs, harringtons, bomber and monkey jackets on your turf?
    [​IMG]
    We need Gerry on here to clear that one up, how it went on about Newcastle.

    And really, I do not find anything wrong with the Denim Trucker Jacket (especially combined with the drivers gloves, definately thumbs up in my book). Some people seem to have the impression that I'm slagging up North which is not the case, just in personal life i'm more influenced by south and ivy cloth wise. And they do look nice whey they still have that raw denim indigo look.

    Would Jungle Greens really be considerd smart? I don't think so, but I do like them very much.

    But I do think we need to delve into the whole "south vs north" thing, if we want to move further in this thread. Of course on a civilised way, since we'vve all grown up now, don't we?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  14. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights Senior member

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    Good to hear from you buttons - I thought you might be 'Brown Bread'
     
  15. Aces and Eights

    Aces and Eights Senior member

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    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013
  16. roytonboy

    roytonboy Senior member

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    Excellent post, Buttons.
     
  17. roytonboy

    roytonboy Senior member

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  18. buttons

    buttons Senior member

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    As for those kids, they are Newcastle lads, and this is what I've been meaning to ask. Newcastle seems exempt from all the video and photographic evidences of the "denim" look. Just look at this photo

    Did you not post this yesterday?[​IMG]
    North Shields - me mate's brother on the left.
     
  19. bunty

    bunty Senior member

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    Roytonboy -I'll giv ya civilised , ya faaackin' norvern munkey :D

    Well done mate on kicking the thread up the arse and getting it started again.

    (I see you pushed someone's) Buttons.
     
  20. Little Queenie

    Little Queenie Senior member

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    You've contacted him haven't you, what did he say? From my understanding Nick Knight was a photography student, who produced a book about London Skinheads in the '80's, he included a section on the origins of Skinhead, for which he 'talked to' people who had been Skinheads during the period 1967-1972. I presume from this he commissioned Jim Ferguson, an original Skinhead and professional illustrator, to write a piece about the evolution of the style during this period and to illustrate the text. I know, because Bob and I discovered the full text on the internet in Greek(!), that what then appeared in the book 'Skinhead' was heavily edited: which is quite obvious as there are gaps (such as missing illustrations). I think Jim Ferguson did an excellent job of compiling what is essentially a précis of the Skinhead style from 1967 -1972. He wrote about what he had seen, in his own area and from going to football. When this forum started all you original Skinheads wrote about what you had seen. How could you have written about what you hadn't seen? Is it Jim Ferguson's fault that later generations of Skinheads took what he wrote as a kind of bible? At the time it was the first attempt at discussing the evolution of the Look and I still believe he did an excellent job. This forum has taught us all that NONE of us knew the whole picture of what went on throughout the British Isles during the period we now term Skinhead.

    As for his drawings: perhaps I like a lot of eggs in my pudding! I paid £5 yesterday to see an art exhibition (which was very good incidentally) and would happily pay £5 to see an exhibition of Jim Ferguson's work - he is a very well-respected illustrator.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2013

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