Menswear on Women

[Journeyman]



CM does not mean conservative business dress. which means Peacocking would be included.

This, most definitely.

Please, let's not turn this thread into a discussion of how everyone should be wearing grey or navy suits with white shirts and conservative ties, regardless of gender.

Classic menswear includes suits in a variety of styles and colours, as well as more colourful clothing. Brightly coloured chino pants embroidered with whales or lobsters, worn with light-coloured jackets and straw hats? In some parts of the US, that is classic menswear during summertime, but it's certainly not conservative.

To be frank, if we're going to limit the discussion in this thread to something equivalent to conservative business dress, then we may as well stop talking about things now as it's just going to be boring as all hell.

I, for one, am interested in discussing and learning more about how some women appropriate various aspects of menswear design but add a feminine twist to it, such as some of Esther Quek's outfits amongst other examples.

 

[jrd617]

Clearly inspired by "classical menswear"

 

[dieworkwear]



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Dismissing menswear on women would be dismissing like 60% of The late great Yves Saint Laurent's work HE is the reason I actually got into fashion This is his legacy And there is Janelle Monae, who actually looks better in a suit than most men do And when Solange is not beating up her Brother-In-Law, she is effing the game up in menswear duds I think the issue with people seeing women in suits as wrong or costumey is that the suit in itself today is costumey. Most men don't wear it and when they do it is for some type of "EVENT". Today when I wear a suit it is as self expression. I would expect women who wear them to do the same.

Fantastic. Here's Bianca Jagger in a Tommy Nutter suit, which was made after she protested against the "feminized cut" Tommy first made for her. On her subsequent commission, she asked for something that would be an exact copy of her husband's suit. The wider lapels and flared trousers work pretty well here, I think.

”Bianca really wanted a man’s suit and not a suit cut for a woman. She asked for the darts to be taken out of her first pistachio green suit to make it sexier.” –Timothy Everest, renowned tailor who trained under Nutter

For reference, Mick Jagger in a Tommy Nutter suit

And Nutter himself, with a more full silhouette so you can make comparisons.

 

[dieworkwear]

Sexton in British Style Genius. Less androgynous, but seems rightfully still belonging in the category of "menswear."


[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

 

[dieworkwear]

Fran Lebowitz in her Anderson & Sheppard

Also Lebowitz in her polo collar

 

[Claghorn]

Some awesome pictures the last couple of posts. Particularly Jagger and Lebowitz.

As far as the intent, I was thinking CM with Kylerton in mind. Necktie/bowtie, slightly more masculine cuts. But I think expanding the thread to include womenswear inspired by menswear isn't too deleterious, as long as there is plenty of menswear on women.

In terms of Jagger's outfit, it's interesting that when removed from the time period, it becomes womenswear inspired by menswear, but placed into its context, it's clearly menswear on a woman.

 

[dieworkwear]



Some awesome pictures the last couple of posts. Particularly Jagger and Lebowitz.

As far as the intent, I was thinking CM with Kylerton in mind. Necktie/bowtie, slightly more masculine cuts. But I think expanding the thread to include womenswear inspired by menswear isn't too deleterious, as long as there is plenty of menswear on women.

In terms of Jagger's outfit, it's interesting that when removed from the time period, it becomes womenswear inspired by menswear, but placed into its context, it's clearly menswear on a woman.

It's an interesting question of what we mean by "menswear on women." It used to be that women went to dressmakers and men went to tailors, but at some point, women began going to tailors as well. Broadly speaking, any kind of lounge suit/ business suit would qualify as menswear, but I'm not 100% sure if that's the intention here.

Anyway, Katherine Hepburn with heavily extended shoulders:

If you expand the last photo, you'll see she's in a shantung suit

Anne Scott James in a high waisted pinstripe:

Frida Kahlo in a low gorge three-piece:

And Louisa d'Andelot Carpenter in a man's tuxedo:

 

[Claghorn]

In the OP, I'm thinking of menswear in the Styleforum CM context, which Kylerton dresses to. The thing that seems to most easily separate womenswear inspired by menswear and (SF: CM) menswear on a woman is whether some sort of tie is being worn or the shirt could be worn as a tie (eliminating most blouses). There are other standards, but that seems the simplest. Some will fall through the cracks, which is why we have discussion. I'd say all the above would be menswear on women.

 

[jrd617]

Now we're talking. That recent batch of pictures is what I envisoned reading the OP

That Nutter stuff, not so much. They admit in the video that they took a very exaggerated, stylized approach to classical menswear... catered to rock musicians who didn't like more traditional Savile Row cuts...

 

[Pope Paul]

Have to admit that there are indeed some exaggerated clothes in the posts above (for instance the huge white lapels/white tuxedo get up) but in general a woman could very easily get away with a good bespoke suit. But they will never get away with a gentleman's walking cane, just looks silly.

 

[Tirailleur1]

Have to admit that there are indeed some exaggerated clothes in the posts above (for instance the huge white lapels/white tuxedo get up) but in general a woman could very easily get away with a good bespoke suit. But they will never get away with a gentleman's walking cane, just looks silly.

to be fair, can anyone get away with it?

 

[dieworkwear]



Now we're talking. That recent batch of pictures is what I envisoned reading the OP

That Nutter stuff, not so much. They freely admit in the video that they took a very exaggerated, stylized approach to classical menswear.

I normally try to not get into these sorts of debates, but FWIW:

The idea of classic men's clothing as you imagine it never existed, except for a brief period from about 1920 until 1945. Since 1945, there's been a ton of variation in men's clothing by decade and region (even if we're to only look at tailored clothing). In the immediate post-war period, you have "street" fashions like the Teddy Boys in the UK, as well as the emergence of Italian tailoring, which came out of Rome and then was spread around by American movie stars (think Brioni, Battistoni, etc). Then in the 60s, you have designers such as Pierre Cardin, Hardy Aimes, and John Weitz; style icons such as The Beatles and Michael Caine; the French Renoma look; the climaxing of the American Ivy Look; the Peacock Revolution; and the Mods. In the '70s, you have wider shoulders and wider lapels with designers and tailors such as Armani, Tommy Nutter, and Yves Saint Laurent, all of whom made really glamourous, exciting silhouettes. In the '90s and early aughts, you have more austere and slimmed down looks with Jil Sander, Helmut Lang, and Hedi Slimane. Maybe you think those designers suck, but their suits do look really good on certain frames, and if anything - they brought a whole new generation of young people back into the fray of tailored clothing (before Mad Men), which helped keep the suit relevant.

There's a ton in there you may or may not like, but even in the bits and pieces that are adored by people on this side of the board (Ivy Style looks, 1930s British tailoring, '60s Italian tailoring, and the Mod look, etc) there's a lot of variation. To say there's a "classic look" in just that set of styles is kind of crazy. The only thing you can really say is that when people refer to "classic men's clothing," they're referring to this set of varied examples of how you can wear a coat and tie.

So if there's not one "set permanent fashion," then why all the snobbery about fashion in general? Why the need to think that what everyone else does is ephemeral and whimsical, and what you do is somehow forever timeless and above the fray? The things you like were nothing more than the fashion dictates of their day. The Duke of Windsor was nothing but a fashion setter. The lounge suit he wore, for example, was done as a fashion statement, and the pieces he wore were chosen to attract attention. Your'e just as much of a slave to fashion as anyone else on here. You're just a slave to the fashions from a different period, is all.

There's a ton of interesting sartorial history that I think you're missing out on. Tommy Nutter's suits have a grandeur about them that's very admirable. Just because you can't wear them today doesn't make them any less romantic or beautiful. We don't like clothing because we just want to dress appropriately for job interviews or weddings, or because we want to attract a potential partner. We wear and love this stuff because it's beautiful, grand, and personally satisfying. I enjoy dressing well even if I plan on staying home for the day and know I won't see anyone. I wouldn't wear some of those bolder Nutter suits, but that doesn't mean I can't sit here and appreciate them. Clothing is not just about trying to practically get by in society. If it were, there wouldn't be such a need to romanticize every label and tailor.

 

[Journeyman]

^Very well said, and I agree entirely.

 

[jrd617]

^ I'm fully briefed on the history of the business suit. By no means an expert, but there are a few Anglo-Italian archetypes that have persisted since at least the 20s: the drape, the continental, the military, etc. The SF darling drape started with Scholte/AS and to some extent influenced the Neapolitan soft shoulder w/ a slightly less full chest.

There's room for interpretation, but those suits in the YSL post especically are a huge deviation from the mean. Those are fashion suits that exagerate bodily proportions

 

[dieworkwear]



^ I'm fully briefed on the history of the business suit. By no means an expert, but there are a few Anglo-Italian archetypes that have persisted since at least the 20s: the drape, the continental, the military, etc.

There's room for interpretation, but those suits in the YSL post especically are a huge deviation from the mean. Those are fashion suits that exagerate bodily proportions

The '70s stuff is pretty exaggerated, but I don't know why you'd take the drape cut as being within the mean and something that has "persisted since at least the '20s." It's a pretty unusual cut, and one that never really caught on. Someone once described it as a "hit with critics, but a flop at the box office," which I think sums it up really well.

I like and wear the drape cut, but it's very, very, very hard (if not impossible) to separate out what "objectively" looks good from what you've been conditioned to like and what's groupthink. There are some people here who hate the drape cut, and they have excellent taste. I wouldn't call them wrong for it. Oddly, I think the drape cut and the slim fitted Mod suit can look really good on the same person - so where's the logic of "clothing being a body enhancer" in that?

Anyway, this is an aside from my point. My real point is that your idea of "classic men's clothing" has a ton of variation. When you say:

Classical menswear is anti-fashion. It calls for more conservative proportions, conservative color/patterns, etc. It eschews trendiness or whatever flavor of the month YSL is peddling.

...you're using an idea of classic men's clothing that never existed. Just refer back to some of the most revered labels and tailors to see the kind of extreme variation that can exist: Camps de Luca vs. Huntsman vs. Brooks Brothers vs. Rubinacci. There's no reason to get snobby about fashion when there's been a ton of trends and "fashion" in classic men's clothing itself. Those variations are what make men's clothing exciting and interesting. (In his book The Empire of Fashion, Lipovetsky even linked ever-changing fashion to the resilience of liberalism).