Menswear on Women

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, May 18, 2014.

  1. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Given the arrival of @Kylerton , as well as the interesting sartorial implications of menswear on women, it seemed time for a thread dedicated to such.

    I've not thought much about this, so I'm just spitballing here, but some things I'd like to hear thoughts about (especially from those who have design, retail, and/or tailoring experience):

    Pant rise
    At first, I thought there would be less of a need. Kylerton has like a 2 inch rise on hers. But perhaps a more traditional rise is more forgiving on wider hips? Diane Keaton seems to prefer a more traditional rise.

    Lapels
    Narrower lapels for narrower shoulders. Wider lapels for a more masculine look/compensate for breasts? I guess it depends on what the dresser is going for. But bowing would seem to be an issue unless cut properly.

    Jacket length
    I noticed on one of her pictures that Kylerton's friends (who need to register) have a proper length whereas Kylerton's jackets are way too short (at least, for my relatively conservative tastes).

    And I'm tired. Someone do a better job of getting this thread rolling. Here are a bunch of pictures of Diane Keaton.

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    Good (by modern red carpet standards).

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    Not good.

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    Subverting CM rather than working within it.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  2. Claghorn

    Claghorn Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    [​IMG]

    monkstraps, no less.

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    I dislike everything but the tie, which is still too skinny
     
  3. AJL

    AJL Senior member

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    She looks a little like early Bowie there (chronologically would be reversed I suppose). [ATTACHMENT=9078]bowie.jpg (8k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT]
     
  4. Cleav

    Cleav Senior member Dubiously Honored Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Annie Lennox with her tailor Edward Sexton

    Here for womens bespoke as well as da mens

    http://www.edwardsexton.co.uk

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    Cate

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    Marlene


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    The inimitable Twiggy
     
  5. Academic2

    Academic2 Senior member

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    What counts as “menswear” is not fixed, of course, and important cultural changes often have consequences for both the gender and class associations of apparel.

    The American blue jean, for example, began life as a distinctly working-class male item of work clothing, where the work was manual in nature—by the 50s in the northeastern US they were associated with construction work in particular. The political upheaval of the 60s found politicized middle class college students consciously adopting jeans as a way of publicly transgressing that class boundary, making a political statement of solidarity (things were slightly different in the UK, but that’s another story). By the late 70s the political association was increasingly a thing of the past, and the class distinction had eroded to the point where jeans had become leisure wear for everyone, regardless of class, and ultimately regardless of gender.

    Cheers,

    Ac
     
  6. ShawnBC

    ShawnBC Senior member

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    How could we start a thread about women in #menswear without bringing up Sarah Ann Murray and Esther Quek of The Rake?

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    I agree some might find them a little costume-y but I find these two women very attractive in their attires!
     
  7. Kylerton

    Kylerton Well-Known Member

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    Pant Rise is an interesting subject when it comes to men's tailoring for women. A lot of our clients cannot purchase men's pants and have them tailored to fit because of the huge pant rise in men's pants. on average, women are shorter and therefore a 9-10 inch rise makes it look like they have an (for lack of a better word) penis pouch. Our clients tend towards a 7.5 - 8.5 inch rise. I prefer a 7.5 inch rise, given that the pants in my OP have WAY too short a rise as @Claghorn noticed (it's a 7inch and it cups VERY uncomfortably). Again, it depends on the proportions of the individual.

    Agreed with you on lapels -- narrower lapels for narrower shoulders -- i generally give clients a 2.5 - 3.25 inch lapel depending on their point to point measurement.

    As for Jacket length, I've been on a Thom Browne kick lately, hence the way too short jacket. My jacket lengths vary from 23 - 25" (24" seems to be my favorite) and I am 5'3 tall. I generally give clients the proper length, especially when they are trying to cover up larger cabooses.

    I think CM is amazing and I love it, it is literally my life. I am trying to educate my clients more and teach them the ways, but there's always only so much I can do with female body types! Sometimes we have to make up our own rules when it comes to menswear on women, as Diane Keaton, Cate Blanchett, and so many other women have done since the dawn of time.

    Here's a few photos:

    Julie Andrews -- killing it like a boss
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    Ellen DeGeneres -- because duh.
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    The adorable Emma Watson
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    Plenty more photos to come, but I'm running out the door. Most importantly, I think point to point measurements, sleeve length, and lapel width are great starting points -- if those are incorrect the whole outfit looks unbalanced.
     
  8. Academic2

    Academic2 Senior member

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    The evolution of English equestrian attire beginning in the latter half of the 19th century saw a degree of convergence between men’s and women’s riding apparel. It's almost identical from the waist up; from the waist down the woman’s version would have a skirt or skirt-like addition to keep the legs covered. E.g. (discussion of attire begins around 2:04),



    These days, what’s worn by women in dressage isn’t stylistically different than what’s worn by men—the design’s the same, it’s just tailored differently

    Women interested in adapting the look of men’s formal wear might begin by looking at riding apparel where this has already been done— it's stylistically unisex, differing only in the cut.

    https://www.dressageextensions.com/Search.asp?cat=02_04

    Cheers,

    Ac
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  9. Roycru

    Roycru Senior member

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    What about the other way round, like Alastair Sim as Miss Millicent Fritton, Headmistress of St. Trinian's?

    [​IMG]
     
  10. sugarbutch

    sugarbutch Bearded Prick Dubiously Honored

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    The "penis pouch" is almost certainly the result of adapting a men's cut rather than excessive rise. You can find lots of women's pants which sit at the natural waist with a cleanly fitting crotch.

    I would think that one of the greater challenges from a business perspective would be the need for a large number of patterns to account for the huge variance in women's shapes in the hips and chest. How does your company address this?
     
  11. jrd617

    jrd617 Senior member

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    This was my intiial reaction to ShawnBCs images: (now spoilered at claghorns request


    Then I thought about why I dislike most of these images. The women are "peacocking" too much with loud colors, loud patterns, and exagerrated non anatomically correct sihlouettes. Tacky. Looks like the a costume. If the J. Crew #menswear shit looks ridiculous on a man, then shouldn't it also look tacky on a woman? (See the images of Diane Keaton and everthing shawnBC posted)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  12. 7_rocket

    7_rocket Senior member

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  13. jrd617

    jrd617 Senior member

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    Also personal pet peeve is when women cut their hair short. Unsexiest thing ever to me

    shivers

     
  14. jrd617

    jrd617 Senior member

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    I saw some British movie called closed circuit a few months ago

    Rebecca Hall looked good

    No tackiness required

     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  15. Isolation

    Isolation Senior member

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    For women who want to build up their shoulders (less t tends to result in muscle and shoulders) and get a better silhouette I'd presume peak lapels would be pretty good, and similarly double breasted, but I haven't seen it too much to say. That said peak lapel is a bit more formal showy, and I think suits are ostentatious enough as they are in the contemporary world, if you're going to dress in a suit as a woman, you're making a statement so I don't see any problem in this as long as you do it well. I am curious about the effect of three button suits on somewhat smaller bodies though. I can find arguments for it being good for both tall and short people.

    I think a lot of the OTR women's suits have some pretty ugly trendy/modern stylings that are really bad (like overly large or narrow lapels, lapels with contrast colored borders, etc etc). Like most women's suits have tiny or no breast pockets, side pockets, 1 button almost as if to emphasize the breasts, and built to not fit well. Even the jackets that are a bit wide you can tell that they are shaped for the breasts to almost spill out, and the fabric is expected to pull into an X, as opposed to a properly fitted jacket. There are obvious problems with suits and breasts since the body shape varies so much, but this is something else altogether, like they feel it's important to emphasize this is a woman's suit and it's always worse quality.

    Photos, hmm. I remember seeing a photo of Emma Watson in a glen plaid 3 piece somewhere, thought it looked very good on her. I think for looking examples it's important to show women that are celebrities wearing CM because it's very different, these people are always making fashion statements to some extent and are judged and perceived in a very different basis. Much better to see well dressed female lawyers/bankers or professionals of some sort, in some places dressing properly in a context that isn't celebrity photographers, and see how it works, but of course there are very few examples of this.
     

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