MC General Chat

[bourbonbasted]

Holdfast should watch that video. The tension with which she talks about "John" is crippling...

Also, awesome video, Derek.

 

[Holdfast]

Holdfast should watch that video. The tension with which she talks about "John" is crippling...

Totally worth putting up with the rest of it, just for that.

It always amazes me how much of themselves people are willing to put out there.

(Mind you, I post photos of what I wear most days, so...)

 

[JubeiSpiegel]



made it 90 seconds before i had to stop it. holy bejeezus!

I watched it two minutes, and regret it... greatly...

 

[fxh]



I have that book as well (IIRC the Japan essay's been discussed on SF somewhere before - in fact that might have prompted me to get the book; can't remember - though I can't dig the thread up with a simple search)

http://www.styleforum.net/t/292692/ft-tokyo-and-classic-menswear/0_50

Its a while since I've read the paper but I think Slade is saying, in a fairly straightforward way , that the japanese use of the suit didn't evolve from their own traditions of dress, they had stuck to their own style of dress before in the face of the chinese and prior 'modernity" .

The Japanese already had a sartorial language of masculinity and dandyism and Japanese mens clothing related to, and idealised, the body in very different ways to the suit. Yet the suit was quickly adopted. I think he argues that the suit was adopted through an avante garde impulse not a conservative impulse.

I think he just assumes there was a "crisis of masculinity" rather than builds evidence for one. But since theres always a crisis of masculinity - its a pretty safe assumption.

Heres one of the illustrations he uses in the paper.

 

[Holdfast]

Thanks for finding the old thread.

It's a while since I read the essay, so I can't remember whether Slade mentions this, but the arrival of the suit in Japan coincided with a broader cultural crossroads between its old/insular traditions and Western industrialisation. That in itself made its adoption a daring statement of modernity.

 

[dieworkwear]



Thanks for finding the old thread.

It's a while since I read the essay, so I can't remember whether Slade mentions this, but the arrival of the suit in Japan coincided with a broader cultural crossroads between its old/insular traditions and Western industrialisation. That in itself made its adoption a daring statement of modernity.

He does. That's one of the main points of his essay.

 

[Journeyman]



Thanks for finding the old thread.

It's a while since I read the essay, so I can't remember whether Slade mentions this, but the arrival of the suit in Japan coincided with a broader cultural crossroads between its old/insular traditions and Western industrialisation. That in itself made its adoption a daring statement of modernity.

Quite so. In fact, the push for modernisation was, in many ways, championed by the Emperor Meiji (Mutsuhito), who ruled from around 1868 to 1912. His rule - the first by an Emperor (instead of the military ruler, the shogun) for some 260 years - both coincided with and greatly contributed to an era of massive reforms in Japan - societal reforms, political reforms and economic reforms.

Importantly, the Meiji restoration saw the abolition of the samurai class and the creation of a modern military force which included both samurai and others, as national conscription was introduced and modern military methods and technology was introduced from overseas. Japan was opened up to other countries, both in terms of trade and cultural exchange. Significantly, at that time, as part of the overall modernisation of Japan (after being largely isolated from other countries for two centuries), the military and the education system adopted Western uniforms, strongly influenced by what was in use in Prussia/Germany at the time. Many schools - particularly those for boys - still wear a similar uniform today, including a high-collared, "Prussian" jacket.

Therefore, in some ways, I wouldn't necessarily say that wearing a suit in Meiji-era Japan was particularly daring. I suppose that it might have been if you lived in a more rural area, but in large cities such as Tokyo and Osaka, it would have been quite fashionable, particularly as the Emperor himself had started wearing Western dress on many occasions, had encouraged his cabinet to dress similarly, and had introduced Western school and military uniforms.

I don't really see why Japan would be singled out as the subject of such an article, as whilst Japan's experience of being a closed country for a couple of centuries, and of then being subjected to rapid modernisation (and Westernisation, in certain respects) is somewhat different from other Asian countries, many countries that had different types of traditional dress, such as China, Taiwan, Korea and so on, all now wear Western clothes as a matter of course.

Just as an Englishman puts on a suit to do business, so too does a Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese or Korean man.

Furthermore, when an Englishman puts on a suit to go to work, he does not think of the centuries of development that resulted in the style of clothing he is wearing - he simply thinks that it is an appropriate piece of clothing to wear to work as it makes him look formal and businesslike. Similarly, when a Japanese or other Asian man puts on a suit, he does not think that he is being culturally oppressed, nor that he is denying his cultural heritage and history, nor even that he looks particularly Western - he simply thinks that he looks businesslike.

 

[fxh]



Quite so. In fact, the push for modernisation was, in many ways, championed by the Emperor Meiji (Mutsuhito), who ruled from around 1868 to 1912. His rule - the first by an Emperor (instead of the military ruler, the shogun) for some 260 years - both coincided with and greatly contributed to an era of massive reforms in Japan - societal reforms, political reforms and economic reforms.
Importantly, the Meiji restoration saw the abolition of the samurai class and the creation of a modern military force which included both samurai and others, as national conscription was introduced and modern military methods and technology was introduced from overseas. Japan was opened up to other countries, both in terms of trade and cultural exchange. Significantly, at that time, as part of the overall modernisation of Japan (after being largely isolated from other countries for two centuries), the military and the education system adopted Western uniforms, strongly influenced by what was in use in Prussia/Germany at the time. Many schools - particularly those for boys - still wear a similar uniform today, including a high-collared, "Prussian" jacket.
Therefore, in some ways, I wouldn't necessarily say that wearing a suit in Meiji-era Japan was particularly daring. I suppose that it might have been if you lived in a more rural area, but in large cities such as Tokyo and Osaka, it would have been quite fashionable, particularly as the Emperor himself had started wearing Western dress on many occasions, had encouraged his cabinet to dress similarly, and had introduced Western school and military uniforms.
I don't really see why Japan would be singled out as the subject of such an article, as whilst Japan's experience of being a closed country for a couple of centuries, and of then being subjected to rapid modernisation (and Westernisation, in certain respects) is somewhat different from other Asian countries, many countries that had different types of traditional dress, such as China, Taiwan, Korea and so on, all now wear Western clothes as a matter of course.
Just as an Englishman puts on a suit to do business, so too does a Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese or Korean man.
Furthermore, when an Englishman puts on a suit to go to work, he does not think of the centuries of development that resulted in the style of clothing he is wearing - he simply thinks that it is an appropriate piece of clothing to wear to work as it makes him look formal and businesslike. Similarly, when a Japanese or other Asian man puts on a suit, he does not think that he is being culturally oppressed, nor that he is denying his cultural heritage and history, nor even that he looks particularly Western - he simply thinks that he looks businesslike.

Journeyman - fancy seeing you here - actually - fancy seeing me here.

I haven't got time to re-read Slade* - but he does talk about the Meiji modernisation. I don't think he does any comparing with other asian or non western nations but rather uses the Japan use of the suit to illustrate that the love and acceptance for the suit isn't just a linear narrative. Warning -I may be just making this up as I go.
*(as an aside I'd recommend the whole book as a solid addition (edition?) to the bookshelf, weighty in volume and words and at times a bit densely written, its edited by two Australians, so naturally you'd expect it to be good. Even though they are from Sydney.)

As you know J man - I've been looking at Japanese tailoring and Ivy {wink} - and theres an amazing amount of interesting stuff around in Japan and with a very refreshing (modern?) take on the classic suit*, without much gimmickry, on both the English style and Ivy style.Tailor Caid being just the most well known. (* I'm including sport jackets etc in the suit)

I wonder if the variety of healthy acceptance of difference in street and fashion wear in japan that this allows them to update the classicism of the suit and leave the other looks/silhouettes/ lines/ idealised body experiments to the others.

 

[Ivar]

Videos don't come more MC-approved than this. Cracking tune, too.

B.J. the Chicago Kid -- "Lady Lady"


[VIDEO][/VIDEO]

 

[fxh]



Videos don't come more MC-approved than this. Cracking tune, too.
B.J. the Chicago Kid -- "Lady Lady"

Its more Fedora Lounge / Tibor

 

[dieworkwear]

Excuse the noobish question but ...

Is there a way to comment on a thread without automatically subscribing to it? In other words, the way I keep up with the threads I'm interested in now is by clicking "My Posts" at the top. This then brings me to a page where any threads I've commented on will be bolded if they've been updated. A nice way for me to follow conversations I'm interested in. However, it also makes me follow threads I'm not terribly interested in, just threads I've commented on. Is there a way to unsubscribe from these threads?

I kind of suspect I don't know how to use the "subscribe" feature well. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[chogall]

Excuse the noobish question but ...
Is there a way to comment on a thread without automatically subscribing to it? In other words, the way I keep up with the threads I'm interested in now is by clicking "My Posts" at the top. This then brings me to a page where any threads I've commented on will be bolded if they've been updated. A nice way for me to follow conversations I'm interested in. However, it also makes me follow threads I'm not terribly interested in, just threads I've commented on. Is there a way to unsubscribe from these threads?
I kind of suspect I don't know how to use the "subscribe" feature well. Any help would be appreciated.

want to know the same thing to better filter unwanted info.

 

[cold war painter]



Is there a way to unsubscribe from these threads?
I kind of suspect I don't know how to use the "subscribe" feature well. Any help would be appreciated.

If you go into "subscriptions" then hover over a thread title, a copy of the thread title will appear with a red X you can click on to unsubscribe.

I'm not sure how to post in a thread without automatically subscribing though.

I like the subscription page, it's the main way I interact with the forum. Over time I've come to find there's only a dozen or so threads I'm interested in and the open forums have a very low signal to noise ratio.

 

[dieworkwear]

Hm, I'm not getting a red X. I just get the thread title and a preview of the first post on that thread.

While I have people's ears, does anyone know how to properly manage the "follow user" subscription feature? There are some users here I find particularly helpful, so I've "followed" them. However, it's not clear to me how I can see their posts on one page. I can only see a list of users I "follow."

 

[cold war painter]

I don't use it, but I would guess the intention is to click through to the user profile and then select "see all posts" or "see threads started" from there.

With the subscriptions, I sometimes (e.g. with the iphone) have to click on the thread title before seeing the X.