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Marriage losing its edge, in America . . .

Mentos

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Originally Posted by Ivan Kipling
The trouble is, though . . . that American society as a whole, will suffer. Not just one person, at a time. Those who are supposed to do the 'interacting,' and provide example, will have been affected too, by the current malaise in marriage and or, parenting. That's how I see it, anyway. My parents were far from perfect, but I'd hate to have depended on co-workers, who had their share of screw ups, and troubles, as examples for me to follow.

Certainly, one must look far and wide for really good examples of how to raise children or treat others. My parents did pretty well, but there are some things that I would never follow them in. In such cases co-workers might provide guidance.

But none of this makes marriage a good or a bad idea--we're talking about parenting skills and general "goodness" that increasingly have nothing to do with marriage.

More generally, I'm skeptical of those who claim that our current society is uniquely debased. Most self-defeating behavior that I see has manifested throughout history and has, if anything, gotten better as people get smarter and less provincial. Except that people now can have an affect on lives on the other side of the world (through nuclear weapons, internet, international travel, etc.). Big exception.
 

Tck13

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They were something of a team; my sister and I knew it. This commitment to 47 years of relative misery, in order to see that children were at least raised, and nurtured, is extremely rare these days.
Marriage is different today than it used to be. In the '50s and '60s, people married for survival. I don't think the relationship mentioned above is, although stable, all that healthy and ideal for a child. I'm not criticizing you as I can (and I'm sure many people can) relate to a similar upbringing.

The man worked and the woman took care of the kids. They did everything for the kids. There were definite roles for each gender. People today (men and women) are much more independent and equal job-wise and salary-wise so neither sex has to depend on one another to survive. People have less reason to stay in poor relationships. Your (and my) parents wouldn't have the excuse to stay in that kind of relationship today because of counselling, 12 step programs, Dr. Phil
laugh.gif
, and just more relationship awareness.

The public is coming out of a sleepwalking stage and of previous generations and learning how to have more intimate relationships. Previous generations didn't / couldn't teach how to have a deeper, intimate relationship because they were surviving. The old dysfuntional ways don't work anymore.

I think also, people are growing emotionally (see paragraph above) and have more options. People (in general) are able to discover more about what they like and may be less tolerant of a mate that would have satisfied in previous generations. Or maybe they've grown out of poor relationships of 5,10,15 years in search of something more.

The industrial revolution and the over-worked people in the American Culture also contribute greatly to divorce.
 

Ivan Kipling

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My mother at LEAST knew, that she had my father's income, and presence, such as it was. Not saying it was a healthy environment. Not, by a long shot. But neither are multiple divorces, blended families, single parent households, etc. This is a fascinating book on the subject.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...70034079&itm=7
 

faustian bargain

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There are others who would argue that peers play a lot larger role than family in fostering good social behavior. I believe one example of this is presented in The Tipping Point.

Anyway, the solution is not to decry the non-nuclear family. That does more harm than good. Change happens; denying change is denying humanity. I'm speaking here of real change, not simply irrational behavior.

That said, I've been married 16 years
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and it's not always been easy.

/andrew
 

Ivan Kipling

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faustian bargain . . . you are to be commended for honoring your marriage contract.

As an observer, it's easy for me to say . . . it wasn't for me. I don't want to share my possessions. I don't want to account for my time. I don't want anybody else, spending my money. I never wanted children. But for those who embark on the journey of marriage . . . the challenge is often overwhelming, or not compelling enough for two people to see things through, for forty years. I can't even imagine submitting myself to such a monumental undertaking. Frankly, I do not think that people marrying today, think in terms of 'forever.' That's fairly obvious. What adults do, is their business. But if one wants to raise a family . . . from where I sit . . . marriage, is the only, logical choice. However illogical a choice, it may be.
 

Thomas

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Originally Posted by faustian bargain
That said, I've been married 16 years
wow.gif
and it's not always been easy.
/andrew


Congratulations! Mrs. Thomas and I celebrated our 8th wedding anniversary yesterday, and it hasn't always been easy.

Originally Posted by Ivan Kipling
it wasn't for me. I don't want to share my possessions. I don't want to account for my time. I don't want anybody else, spending my money. I never wanted children. But for those who embark on the journey of marriage . . . the challenge is often overwhelming, or not compelling enough for two people to see things through, for forty years. I can't even imagine submitting myself to such a monumental undertaking.

You know, through the years of courtship, those thoughts never occurred to me. We got married and then started working through things. I started and finished B-school. She's now in law school. We support each other financially and emotionally. We talk business issues from both of our jobs, and bounce a lot of ideas off each other. We can tell when one of us is down, and do the pep talk thing. The best things I can say is this: without her I doubt I would be where I am today, and perhaps she can say the same.

What does this have to do with marriage? Societal approval. Of Course we got married, because that's the only way her family would let her shack up with yours truly. That, and running off is so expensive. It's a bit like Cortez burning the boats upon his arrival at the new world.
 

Ivan Kipling

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I am happy for you, as well, Thomas! My parents made it through 47 years. My FATHER would never have been where he was, minus my mother's support. She sacrificed her entire life, to keep him on an even keel; I thank God that my sister has done better for herself, than that.
All depends on how you look at it. Ivan couldn't stand to be with the same person, for five minutes . . . I get bored too easily. And I'm far too self-centered. Also, I lack the necessary faith to put my trust in anyone, vis a vis, so commanding a gesture. To say nothing of the fact that my cousin, with whom I was very close, and whose life on the North Shore was considered by many to be a dream situation . . . just made headlines in the Chicago Sun Times: Front page story. Maria lost a 9.7 million dollar libel suit against her ex-husband; this couple's divorce has fascinated North Chicago, for close to ten years. Four children, in the bargain.
 

Thomas

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Originally Posted by Ivan Kipling
To say nothing of the fact that my cousin, with whom I was very close, and whose life on the North Shore was considered by many to be a dream situation . . . just made headlines in the Chicago Sun Times: Front page story. Maria lost a 9.7 million dollar libel suit against her ex-husband; this couple's divorce has fascinated North Chicago, for close to ten years. Four children, in the bargain.

Ivan, very sorry to hear of your cousin's experience. It's a shame when it gets to that degree of litigiousness and (apparent) bitterness. Mrs. T and I alternate between biting our tongues and lashing out, but we've fought fair.

I'm reminded of a Mormon friend. He got married at around age 22, he works, she doesn't, they have four girls. They're great people. I was engaged to Mrs. T at that time, and I asked him how it happened he got hitched so young. He told me that - generally speaking - any good christian boy and good christian girl should be a good marriage. Good christians put others first, and so it should happen in the marriage, each puts spouse before self.

To clarify matters, Mrs. T and yours truly were raised catholic, but set foot in a church perhaps twice a year, or less if possible. Take away the God factor, but keep the idea of putting others first, and I think you could have a good marriage, to say nothing of society at large.
 

Ivan Kipling

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Ah, but I like to put myself, first!! LOL. And I'm of Greek ancestry. My cousin is too . . . Greeks are dramatic, theatrical people. With lots of wiles and a bit of cunning. My cousin's divorce has some of the longest legs, in the history of the State of Illinois. And the story is not over, yet.

I admire your good intentions, and your kindness. btw: are you SURE, you want to see The Departed? Be prepared for a byzantine plethora of profanity, gore, confusion and pretense.
 

lawyerdad

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Originally Posted by Thomas
Congratulations! Mrs. Thomas and I celebrated our 8th wedding anniversary yesterday, .
Congrats!
cheers.gif
 

Thomas

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Originally Posted by Ivan Kipling
Ah, but I like to put myself, first!! LOL. And I'm of Greek ancestry. My cousin is too . . . Greeks are dramatic, theatrical people. With lots of wiles and a bit of cunning. My cousin's divorce has some of the longest legs, in the history of the State of Illinois. And the story is not over, yet.

I admire your good intentions, and your kindness. btw: are you SURE, you want to see The Departed? Be prepared for a byzantine plethora of profanity, gore, confusion and pretense.


Ivan, I completely respect that. Knowing yourself and being honest with yourself is - to me - the first of all virtues. Failing to know oneself, and living under false pretenses, seems to cause more heartache than up-front honesty.
Also, I hope your cousin's divorce turns towards a speedy and amicable - or at least equitable - conclusion.

As for the Departed, well...we didn't think Black Dahlia sucked, and I was quite a fan of Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, so if I was ready to worship at the feet of Tarantino (all those years ago) I doubt The Departed would be a complete waste. That said, there's a football game Friday evening, and Saturday is homecoming for our exchange student, so I doubt we'll be visiting the theater this weekend. Another week passes...
 

Thomas

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Originally Posted by lawyerdad
Congrats!
cheers.gif


Thank you - we cracked a bottle of Dom last night (first time drinking such expensive swill!) and had to invite the neighbors to help kill the bottle. How old have we become???
 

Ivan Kipling

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Okay, Thomas . . . you've been admonished.
I think for me, it's time to watch The Barefoot Contessa, one more time.

http://www.mgm.com/audiotrax.do?wma=...wma&artist=Ava Gardner (Maria Vargas), Humphrey Bogart (Harry Dawes)&title=BAREFOOT-CL04_Belong.wma&desc=BAREFOOT-CL04_Belong.wma


MGMA000402-still_hires.jpg
 

FLMountainMan

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Congratulations! Mrs. Thomas and I celebrated our 8th wedding anniversary yesterday, and it hasn't always been easy..


Sorry bro, but it's not going to work out.

But on topic, let's all just agree that we should never let gay people marry, okay?
 

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