Luxury clothes of the past

[Son Of Saphir]

People had a lot less money in the 1970's and 80's, and cities had a lot less people, yet retail stores stocked expensive things and quality far better than most things available today. Even countries not known for quality had small shopping strips that stocked Ballanyne jumpers and Vicuna coats. There were numerous shops that sold expensive clothing items, and people paid the money for them. There was a market for these things, and this was decades before the internet was invented. These days there isn't a market for the expensive things in various countries anymore, people have forgotten about luxury clothing, and people are not prepared to save money for the expensive items like they used to. People are not buying from the top shops like they used to because they don't understand why things are priced so high, so over time these shops and tailors disappear. One retailer told me that Ballantyne jumpers were $550 in 1983, and at least a couple of retailers sold these jumpers in the 70's and 80's in my backwater country. Most retailers wouldn't dare sell things like that these days in your average city.

Lets discuss this - how luxury has been forgotten - how cheap manufacturing has turned people into cheap stakes - how retail now sells mediocre quality - how most of the great tailors have disappeared.

 

[TheIronDandy]

I think it's more the case that the type of people who bought $550 jumpers in the 80s now buy $5 000 Chanel purses and $80 000 steel sport watches. And there's still Bruno C and Loro Piana selling crazy expensive knitwear of (fairly) high quality.

I read a REALLY good book on this called (if I recall correctly) Status and Culture, about changes in consumer patterns and the rise of social media changed luxury shopping. I can really recommend it if you're interested in this topic.

 

[comrade]

For tailored clothing for men you are correct. I shopped in the 70s and 80s.
Nevertheless, in cities like New York, London and Paris there remain numerous
exclusive specialty boutiques that cater to high income clientele. This is especially
true for women. Where I live, the SanFrancisco Bay Area, one of the wealthiest
metro areas in world, it is normal to see the driver of a Ferrari wearing Levis,
running shoes and a fleece. Thirty years ago, the might have had on slacks and
a sport coat.

 

[epsilon22]

I think your idea of luxury (clothing) just no longer aligns with today's preferences. The cool trust fund kids now throw money on watches like this monstrosity or overpriced sneakers and clothes that look like trash bags with logos plastered all over them.

 

[DorianGreen]

I think your idea of luxury (clothing) just no longer aligns with today's preferences. The cool trust fund kids now throw money on watches like this monstrosity or overpriced sneakers and clothes that look like trash bags with logos plastered all over them.

Sad but true. A notorious brand on a garment suffices to make poorly made and styled clothes luxury, regardless of quality of material and make.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

For tailored clothing for men you are correct. I shopped in the 70s and 80s.
Nevertheless, in cities like New York, London and Paris there remain numerous
exclusive specialty boutiques that cater to high income clientele.

It is different in my country, all the old school luxury stores have gone, and the last remaining one will be gone in 6 weeks. The staff, all men in their 70's, told me about the glory days of retail. He tells me about the younger generation of people who come to his shop and don't understand the high prices, and they all prefer to skimp. Few understand the old school luxury anymore. Another store which used to be high end now caters to the lower end. Another store which was highend started catering to the trust fund crowd with highly priced runway designer clothes, but that store shut down this year.

I remember in the 1990s an old school tailor to the rich and famous selling $350 socks. It was one of the last of the old school luxury shops in my country. Some of these tailors trained overseas with the Italian or Savile Row top tailors, and they went to live in backwater countries catering to the top end of town. There was no taking photos of clothes or boasting about tailors, instead it was always discrete and for those in the know. These tailors could only serve a limited clientele, and few knew of these artisans, and none have ever been mentioned online, but they all charged Savile Row prices. Even today there is a tailor in my country who trained at Savile Row and with top Italian tailors who is very accomplished, yet there is no mention of him online, and no photos exist of his work, but he happily goes serving the top end of town discretely. He doesn't need forums and instagram, and to post online about these things would be considered bad taste. I understand he is possibly the last of the great tailors in my country, and people's lips stay shut - one doesn't go broadcasting these things. Some of the best shoemakers in my country never advertised, but they were highly trained, had no shop presence, and have never been mentioned on the internet; loyal clients always kept them a secret, and forums never knew of any of these people. People in the know keep these secrets to the grave.

 

[DapperDan15]

From what I understand (being a whippersnapper, myself), luxury items today are not necessarily too more expensive than they used to be - as a proportion of income, rather than the dollar cost. We're also more used to having larger closets than our grandfathers' and great-grandfathers' generation.

 

[comrade]

It is different in my country, all the old school luxury stores have gone, and the last remaining one will be gone in 6 weeks. The staff, all men in their 70's, told me about the glory days of retail. He tells me about the younger generation of people who come to his shop and don't understand the high prices, and they all prefer to skimp. Few understand the old school luxury anymore. Another store which used to be high end now caters to the lower end. Another store which was highend started catering to the trust fund crowd with highly priced runway designer clothes, but that store shut down this year.

I remember in the 1990s an old school tailor to the rich and famous selling $350 socks. It was one of the last of the old school luxury shops in my country. Some of these tailors trained overseas with the Italian or Savile Row top tailors, and they went to live in backwater countries catering to the top end of town. There was no taking photos of clothes or boasting about tailors, instead it was always discrete and for those in the know. These tailors could only serve a limited clientele, and few knew of these artisans, and none have ever been mentioned online, but they all charged Savile Row prices. Even today there is a tailor in my country who trained at Savile Row and with top Italian tailors who is very accomplished, yet there is no mention of him online, and no photos exist of his work, but he happily goes serving the top end of town discretely. He doesn't need forums and instagram, and to post online about these things would be considered bad taste. I understand he is possibly the last of the great tailors in my country, and people's lips stay shut - one doesn't go broadcasting these things. Some of the best shoemakers in my country never advertised, but they were highly trained, had no shop presence, and have never been mentioned on the internet; loyal clients always kept them a secret, and forums never knew of any of these people. People in the know keep these secrets to the grave.

Out of curiosity, which is your country?

 

[epsilon22]

It is different in my country, all the old school luxury stores have gone, and the last remaining one will be gone in 6 weeks. The staff, all men in their 70's, told me about the glory days of retail. He tells me about the younger generation of people who come to his shop and don't understand the high prices, and they all prefer to skimp. Few understand the old school luxury anymore. Another store which used to be high end now caters to the lower end. Another store which was highend started catering to the trust fund crowd with highly priced runway designer clothes, but that store shut down this year.

I remember in the 1990s an old school tailor to the rich and famous selling $350 socks. It was one of the last of the old school luxury shops in my country. Some of these tailors trained overseas with the Italian or Savile Row top tailors, and they went to live in backwater countries catering to the top end of town. There was no taking photos of clothes or boasting about tailors, instead it was always discrete and for those in the know. These tailors could only serve a limited clientele, and few knew of these artisans, and none have ever been mentioned online, but they all charged Savile Row prices. Even today there is a tailor in my country who trained at Savile Row and with top Italian tailors who is very accomplished, yet there is no mention of him online, and no photos exist of his work, but he happily goes serving the top end of town discretely. He doesn't need forums and instagram, and to post online about these things would be considered bad taste. I understand he is possibly the last of the great tailors in my country, and people's lips stay shut - one doesn't go broadcasting these things. Some of the best shoemakers in my country never advertised, but they were highly trained, had no shop presence, and have never been mentioned on the internet; loyal clients always kept them a secret, and forums never knew of any of these people. People in the know keep these secrets to the grave.

Eh honestly I don't care much for all these "in the know" businesses, so I'm glad there has been a shift away from them and into craftspeople openly advertising on social media and having price lists easily looked up.

Granted, I'm biased, because I don't come from the social class that would have access to those non-advertising craftspeople you seem to love so much. Like, do I really need to have generational wealth and be part of the ultra elite social circle before I can order some nice clothes and shoes?

 

[Son Of Saphir]

^^^

I don't want to get into the social class thing, it's not really about that. It is more about keeping our sources quiet. There are only so many suits and shoes someone can make. If someone is lucky enough to break into that small world then he is very lucky. I like how access is limited, and you have to be deemed worthy through trusted discrete networks to be given the `secret sources'. It's all cheapened by the internet these days, everything is available and found at the click of a button. I much prefer the old ways of doing things through networks. We don't like the internet celebrities and showoffs, it is so low brow and consumerism at its lowest.

One of the shopping strips used to sell Brioni, top bespoke, great shoes, top jewelry etc. All top items. People walking around used to dress up nicely, and it wasn't unusual to see retired men pottering around in a nice suit or the older ladies gathering in fancy restaurants with their pearl necklaces. One old man would wear old bespoke tweeds and alligator shoes and would sit in the park feeding the birds. 30 years later it is a different scene: the tailors are gone, the shoes are gone, the suits are gone, the fancy restaurants are gone, the top jewelry is gone. The shopping strip is takeaway food shops, cheap shops and mediocre cafes, and everyone is in sneakers. What on earth happened??

 

[DorianGreen]

On one side I also miss those lovely boutiques selling high quality clothing and regret those times when you went personally in the store and got a good advice and supporting, on the other I also appreciate that the globalization brought by the web has made a lot of things, even the most exclusive ones, available for the most, and I also enjoy this sort of democratization.

But, yes, I definitely mourn those times when any respectable gentleman, but even common people, dressed carefully and properly.

 

[TheIronDandy]

^^^

I don't want to get into the social class thing, it's not really about that.
...
What on earth happened??

But indirectly it is about social class. If you "keep quiet about your sources" and you're "lucky to break into that world", it does strongly favour those born into families who are already customers of those makers. If you don't have the connections and know the right way to ask, you won't break into that world. And how do you get those connections and learn how to speak the right way? Most likely from your family. An arrogant twit who comes from a family that has been customers for generations have a better chance to "break into that world" than the uneducated son of a mud farmer - even if the son of the mud farmer ends up making a lot of money, and even if the farmers son actually appreciates the craftsmanship a lot more than the arrogant twit. I mean, how is anyone going to find out that he appreciates quality, he's not even going to know who to ask, or how to ask.

As for what happens, I think part of it is that the people "in the know" used these things as hidden status markers. It was used as a way to distinguish between the old money and the new money. Eventually, people caught on. And what are the new money and the no money going to do if a certain style (and their inability to achieve it, even if they appreciate it, and CAN afford it) is used to discriminate against them? Abandon the style. Create new conventions. If a system is hopelessly rigged against you, you make a new system. Preferably one where success in the old system marks you as a failure in the new. That's largely what happened; tailored clothing is seen as "stuffy" and "old fashioned" in the worst possible way in modern popular culture, while d-bags wearing designer jeans and $2 000 dollar sneakers are seen as "cool".

In that sense, the rise of "design luxury" and "logomania" over stealth wealth can be seen as a rejection of the exclusivist way craft clothing was often handled in the past. The new money, which (heavily due to the rise of the tech industry as the driver of the western economy) ended up with a lot more money and power than the old money, rejected their unwritten rules. And because the new money had a lot more visibility, AND offered a way for everyone to join (as long as your startups IPO was successful), the no-money and some-money classes signed up for this expression of success instead. By and large, the luxury brands joined in. Cartier watches use to be exclusive because only a few were made. Now they're restricted by price only. The profits are apparently better if you make hundreds of thousands of watches, even if not all of them sell.

And there you are. An ugly world celebrating mass consumerism, that still seems to think that wearing the ****** stretch jeans everyone wears is "a bit rock'n'roll". Substandard "fine casual" dining. And SaaS sales-bros. Let's fiddle (and argue about socks) while Rome burns!

 

[DorianGreen]

But indirectly it is about social class. If you "keep quiet about your sources" and you're "lucky to break into that world", it does strongly favour those born into families who are already customers of those makers. If you don't have the connections and know the right way to ask, you won't break into that world. And how do you get those connections and learn how to speak the right way? Most likely from your family. An arrogant twit who comes from a family that has been customers for generations have a better chance to "break into that world" than the uneducated son of a mud farmer - even if the son of the mud farmer ends up making a lot of money, and even if the farmers son actually appreciates the craftsmanship a lot more than the arrogant twit. I mean, how is anyone going to find out that he appreciates quality, he's not even going to know who to ask, or how to ask.

As for what happens, I think part of it is that the people "in the know" used these things as hidden status markers. It was used as a way to distinguish between the old money and the new money. Eventually, people caught on. And what are the new money and the no money going to do if a certain style (and their inability to achieve it, even if they appreciate it, and CAN afford it) is used to discriminate against them? Abandon the style. Create new conventions. If a system is hopelessly rigged against you, you make a new system. Preferably one where success in the old system marks you as a failure in the new. That's largely what happened; tailored clothing is seen as "stuffy" and "old fashioned" in the worst possible way in modern popular culture, while d-bags wearing designer jeans and $2 000 dollar sneakers are seen as "cool".

In that sense, the rise of "design luxury" and "logomania" over stealth wealth can be seen as a rejection of the exclusivist way craft clothing was often handled in the past. The new money, which (heavily due to the rise of the tech industry as the driver of the western economy) ended up with a lot more money and power than the old money, rejected their unwritten rules. And because the new money had a lot more visibility, AND offered a way for everyone to join (as long as your startups IPO was successful), the no-money and some-money classes signed up for this expression of success instead. By and large, the luxury brands joined in. Cartier watches use to be exclusive because only a few were made. Now they're restricted by price only. The profits are apparently better if you make hundreds of thousands of watches, even if not all of them sell.

And there you are. An ugly world celebrating mass consumerism, that still seems to think that wearing the ****** stretch jeans everyone wears is "a bit rock'n'roll". Substandard "fine casual" dining. And SaaS sales-bros. Let's fiddle (and argue about socks) while Rome burns!

Great analysis. I totally agree.

 

[DapperDan15]

I don't think this analysis gets at the declining quality of luxury today, though. Why is it impossible to find high quality items in small towns, where they used to be stocked? Why are people unwilling to pay higher prices for things today, even though the cost might still be proportionate to what people paid in the past?

In my experience, people who fall into the "designer luxury" category aren't thinking very much about rejecting the unwritten rules of "old money." They're copying what they think is good taste.

 

[breakaway01]

I don't think this analysis gets at the declining quality of luxury today, though. Why is it impossible to find high quality items in small towns, where they used to be stocked? Why are people unwilling to pay higher prices for things today, even though the cost might still be proportionate to what people paid in the past?

Even on SF, we literally have an "Official Drakes Knock-Off Thread" asking where one can find look-alike products at lower prices, among other endless questions all over this forum asking "where can I find <insert product> cheaper"? And this is among a set of shoppers that is generally willing to stomach higher prices than average.

WSJ reported in 2019 (this might be paywalled) that in 2018, the average American purchased 68 garments a year, about 5 times more than in 1980. They also reported that according to a 2015 study by a British charity, on average a new item of clothing is worn only 7 times before being discarded. The exact numbers can be disputed but I think most people would agree on these trends. Just peruse the affiliate vendor threads and you will quickly identify many people who seem to be buying multiple new items every season from that one vendor alone (multiply by all of the other possible places they could be shopping from). So if the average American is buying 68 new garments annually and tossing most of them after 7 wears, not hard to understand why the market for higher priced/higher quality garments has dried up.

Another interesting poll reported that 2/3 of Americans said they'd buy a $50 pair of pants made in another country over an $85 pair made in the US of the same fabric and design. " Very interesting to me was the finding that "People in higher earning households earning more than $100,000 a year are no less likely than lower-income Americans to say they’d go for the lower price."