Losing weight with a huge appetite?

[Rubber]

Originally Posted by ineffable

The guy is drinking 20 beers a weekend and you're telling him to cut out his carbs? .... This basically summarizes everything that is wrong with diets.

Any type of diet that is cyclic is not healthy.

You are basically forcing your body into thinking it is undergoing starvation, and that is never a good thing: there is a reason your body has certain reactions to those conditions, there is a reason why your body doesn't normally produce ketone bodies, and there is a reason why most healthy people are the ones who eat balanced diets and exercise.
Everything about this post is simply wrong.

 

[Gus]

If you are serious, you need to cut back on sugars and starches (yes, that means beer too) otherwise you will have a gut the rest of your life. Eat more vegetables and protein. There are many sources of lean protein that taste great and keep you feeling full until meal time. Also, drink lots of water, its good for you and helps to keep hunger to a minimum.

Try keeping a small notebook and write down absolutely everything you eat for one week. I'll bet you will be surprised how much more you are eating than you think! And, you'll probably notice a lot more starch and sugars than you thought.

Even healthy foods will cause you to gain weight in the wrong quantities. Good luck.

 

[ineffable]

Originally Posted by Rubber

Everything about this post is simply wrong.

Okay, go ahead hotshot. Please quote some papers you probably don't understand about biochemistry, that deal with these diets in obese people. Please also explain to me why the body is not always in a state of ketosis or why ketone bodies produce acidic blood levels? And what are the long term effects of acidic blood levels? And why is it healthy to put your body into periods of ketosis? Why not stay on a ketogenic diet full time? Can you explain why acidosis can lead to coma/death?

Next would you like to tell me that smoking does not cause lung cancer?

There are a myriad of problems and changes that occur in the body due to ketosis, and these will compound over time. Please, tell me that the body tightly regulates these cycles, at a high energetic cost, for no apparent reason. Or wait, do you even know which cycles I'm talking about? Hm...

The bottom line is that your body works in a certain way, and you are undermining this in order to adhere to some social construct. This type of valuation does not put health first, and that is the problem with them. You are not trying to be healthy you are trying to be "fit" or "trim" or "skinny".

 

[ineffable]

"Ketogenic diets are used in epileptic patients"

.... Severe epilepsy is also solved by splitting the corpus callosum. I don't think that means it's a good solution for someone not suffering from epilepsy. But hey, next time I have a headache...

 

[Rubber]

Originally Posted by ineffable

Okay, go ahead hotshot. Please quote some papers you probably don't understand about biochemistry, that deal with these diets in obese people. Please also explain to me why the body is not always in a state of ketosis or why ketone bodies produce acidic blood levels? And what are the long term effects of acidic blood levels? And why is it healthy to put your body into periods of ketosis? Why not stay on a ketogenic diet full time? Can you explain why acidosis can lead to coma/death? Next would you like to tell me that smoking does not cause lung cancer? There are a myriad of problems and changes that occur in the body due to ketosis, and these will compound over time. Please, tell me that the body tightly regulates these cycles, at a high energetic cost, for no apparent reason. Or wait, do you even know which cycles I'm talking about? Hm... The bottom line is that your body works in a certain way, and you are undermining this in order to adhere to some social construct. This type of valuation does not put health first, and that is the problem with them. You are not trying to be healthy you are trying to be "fit" or "trim" or "skinny".
I'm a med student(First year, plah), I do understand quite a lot about biochemistry though. First of all you're making a very rookie mistake, you're mistaking ketosis for diabetic ketoacidosis. Read up on them. Ketosis cannot lead to coma nor death, diabetic ketosis on the otherhand can. You're comparing apples to oranges. You're probably talking about krebs cycle and gluconeogenesis amongs other things. So hotshot, get your terms right. You have mistaken Diabetic ketoacidosis for ketosis. Two completely different things.

Originally Posted by ineffable

"Ketogenic diets are used in epileptic patients" .... Severe epilepsy is also solved by splitting the corpus callosum. I don't think that means it's a good solution for someone not suffering from epilepsy. But hey, next time I have a headache...
RED HERRING. Also splitting corpus callosum is actually a fairly good treatment, side effects aren't always even noticiable. Edit: So, just because it sounds absurd doesn't make it wrong.

 

[ineffable]

And how are they different, exactly? Please, do go on.

 

[Rubber]

Originally Posted by ineffable

And how are they different, exactly? Please, do go on.
Diabetic ketoacidosis is a life threatening condition in people that have diabetes. It's a state where your body is unable to release enough insulin or insulin does not have any effect on your body. Where as in ketosis your body does release insulin and has an effect on your body. (gluconeogenesis) Also blood sugar levels has correlation with Insulin levels, but is not the only thing that affects them. Aminoacids can cause a high rise in insulin ( IN HEALTHY SUBJECTS). You're really out of your area right now pal. Edit: Almost everyone confuses these two states as they are called almost the same

So I'm not blaming you for having good intentions, and God now that I read my posts I come off like a total dick :/

 

[ineffable]

Okay....

When you don't have enough carbohydrates, large amounts of acetyl-coA are generated. Too much for the TCA cycle. These are converted to ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are used by your heart/skeletal muscle first, before your brain. Why? They are not as good of an energy source. This is not a physiologically healthy response. You don't want this to happen. It happens under conditions of starvation, because the body wants to keep going, until it can feed itself again. This is what you are subjecting your body to. It is stress. Stress is not good for the body. Therefore, it is not healthy.

Also, ketone bodies are strong acids. They have pKa's of about 3.5. This means that protons will dissociate from them at the physiological pH. This is why diabetic ketoacidosis is problematic. High H+ concentration = blood falls below ~7.35 = not good. Keeping your blood pH at/around 7.35 is also not good. It does not cause problems immediately, but there is a reason it is not regularly at this level. Blood pH regulates about every process you can think of (thus why it is so tightly regulated). Lowering your pH even a few points is harmful, in the long term. This is why any biochemist you talk to will not reccomend such a diet. Yes, the short term effects are not plentiful (although you feel different (ie. ******) because your body is under a period of stress. Eventually, you will habituate. But this does not mean it is healthy.)

Yes, this is nowhere near what it is in diabetics. But, it is still something that will have a profound effect in the long term. You should be aware that modern science is a) very biased (due to grants/funding - a positive result = $$$$. a negative result =.... not much of anything) and b) not able to produce solid evidence on a lot of things.

What we need to do is understand the fact that the body regulates mechanisms for a reason, and to manipulate these cycles and functions without knowing the true reprecussions is not smart, or healthy. When the body spends energy on a process, it usually means it is important (and this works on a continuum... An example would be dna synthesis/correction is more tightly regulated than protein synthesis). The more energy spenty regulating, the more important. Lots of energy is spent regulating blood pH and all of these associated cycles. Just as you wouldn't want to mess with your dna synthesis, I don't think you would want to mess with these cycles.

All in all, the main point I am trying to make is that your body functions a certain way and you should try to maintain that - to be healthy. Cutting out refined foods is a good idea. But when you're drinking 20 beers a week and wondering why you have a gut... The solution isn't to stop eating carbs.

 

[Rubber]

Originally Posted by ineffable

Okay.... When you don't have enough carbohydrates, large amounts of acetyl-coA are generated. Too much for the TCA cycle. These are converted to ketone bodies. Ketone bodies are used by your heart/skeletal muscle first, before your brain. Why? They are not as good of an energy source. This is not a physiologically healthy response. you don't want this to happen. It happens under conditions of starvation, because the body wants to keep going, until it can feed itself again. This is what you are subjecting your body to. It is stress. Stress is not good for the body. Therefore, it is not healthy. Also, ketone bodies are strong acids. They have pKa's of about 3.5. This means that protons will dissociate from them at the physiological pH. This is why diabetic ketoacidosis is problematic. High H+ concentration = blood falls below ~7.35 = not good. Keeping your blood pH at/around 7.35 is also not good. It does not cause problems immediately, but there is a reason it is not regularly at this level. Blood pH regulates about every process you can think of (thus why it is so tightly regulated). Lowering your pH even a few points is harmful, in the long term. This is why any biochemist you talk to will not reccomend such a diet. Yes, the short term effects are not plentiful (although you feel different (ie. ******) because your body is under a period of stress. Eventually, you will habituate. But this does not mean it is healthy.) Yes, this is nowhere near what it is in diabetics. But, it is still something that will have a profound effect in the long term. You should be aware that modern science is a) very biased (due to grants/funding - a positive result = $$$$. a negative result =.... not much of anything) and b) not able to produce solid evidence on a lot of things. What we need to do is understand the fact that the body regulates mechanisms for a reason, and to manipulate these cycles and functions without knowing the true reprecussions is not smart, or healthy. When the body spends energy on a process, it usually means it is important (and this works on a continuum... An example would be dna synthesis/correction is more tightly regulated than protein synthesis). The more energy spenty regulating, the more important. Lots of energy is spent regulating blood pH and all of these associated cycles. Just as you wouldn't want to mess with your dna synthesis, I don't think you would want to mess with these cycles. All in all, the main point I am trying to make is that your body functions a certain way and you should try to maintain that - to be healthy. Cutting out refined foods is a good idea. But when you're drinking 20 beers a week and wondering why you have a gut... The solution isn't to stop eating carbs.
1. Ketosis and starvation aren't the same thing, you could be starved even WITH carbohydrates, also physiologically, it's the most normal response and absolutely fine. What comes to stress? Change is always stress on the body, always. Going off from a low carb diet back to a high carb diet is stress. Stress hormone levels actually go down after the assestment period on low carb. So there goes your stress theory. 2. Would you stop talking about diabetics already? The human body has excellent methods of balancing PH, in normal healthy subjects long term ketostate has ZERO(0) adverse effects. Also if you think that the body doesn't control it's own PH , biting into an apple would kill you. You will also feel ****** when going back from a ketodiet to a higher carb diet, does that mean higher carb diet are inherently unhealthy? According to your argument it would. 3.These damned reactions are not unhealthy, dangerous and some of them do not even happen in healthy subjects.

4. Messing with cycles? Eating carbs is messing with cycles, human diet used to be much more low carb before, literally you could say that eating a lot of carbs is messing with your hormonal and such cycles. Also if you would have ever had tried a ketogenic diet you would have noticed that after the couple first weeks you feel much more energetic. Ketones aren't as caloriedense as carbohydrates, that is what you are correct in, but you forgot that ketones are much more available than carbohydrates. You also forgot that the body can produce carbs by itself. Blood sugar in ketogenic diets is far more steady and the amount of energy is too, simply because your body has a "better" access to a high quality food storage. Your fat. 5. Oh I agree, 20 beers a week.. Yeah

Oh also about the kreb's cycle, a healthy body moderates the amount of ketones it products.

 

[ineffable]

Okay, starvation is an absolutely fine, healthy response....
Okay, using acetoacetate + b-hydroxybutarate for energy is perfectly normal...
Okay, Blood pH isn't changed at all by ketone bodies...

and I wasn't saying anything in regards to "stress" hormones. But ketosis as a physiological stress. Which it is.

........really, you expect those arguments to hold any sort of weight when you make these axiomatic fallacies?

You feel bad when going back to a higher carb diet? I don't think I've ever once heard anyone say this. Regardless, this was not something I was trying to make a point about (that would be pseudo-science). I was simply relating it to what you said.

#3 doesnt even make sense

Eating carbs is messing with cycles? .... Not at an appropriate rate, ie in balance. That was my whole point. Of course eating only carbs or 90% or 80% carbs is not good for you. That's the point. It's just as ludicrous for someone to say that you should eat 90% carbs as it is to say that you should not eat carbs.

Please don't try to use an evolutionary methodology to explain your ideas. Although I guess that would be in line with your overwhelming use of conjecture in your arguments.

To be honest, you can do what you like. I can see you have a lot invested in your ideals, and I'm not going to bother trying to change your mind any longer. But, please refrain from trying to influence others to make decisions based on misinformation.

 

[Rubber]

Originally Posted by ineffable

Okay, starvation is an absolutely fine, healthy response.... Okay, using acetoacetate + b-hydroxybutarate for energy is perfectly normal... Okay, Blood pH isn't changed at all by ketone bodies... and I wasn't saying anything in regards to "stress" hormones. But ketosis as a physiological stress. Which it is. ........really, you expect those arguments to hold any sort of weight when you make these axiomatic fallacies? You feel bad when going back to a higher carb diet? I don't think I've ever once heard anyone say this. Regardless, this was not something I was trying to make a point about (that would be pseudo-science). I was simply relating it to what you said. #3 doesnt even make sense Please don't try to use an evolutionary methodology to explain your ideas. Although I guess that would be in line with your overwhelming use of conjecture in your arguments. To be honest, you can do what you like. I can see you have a lot invested in your ideals, and I'm not going to bother trying to change your mind any longer. But, please refrain from trying to influence others to make decisions based on misinformation.
1. Ketosis does not mean starvation, you can be in ketosis even while eating over your maintenance. 2.Yes 3. Yeah, the amount of ketones in your blood (in a healthy subject) Isn't enough to change the ph of the blood, other responses such as (ADH) will counter the effect it has resulting in a +-0 state. 4. Ketosis is no more a stress than digesting a vegetable is. It's a normal function of your body. And 3 makes perfect sense, you kept bringing diabetic ketoacidosis and mixing it up with ketosis. But to your "defence" I do a cyclic ketodiet, which means I'm never literally out of carbs. You're the one whos spreading misinformation, maybe you should read some of the latest scientific research on ketogenic diets. They have been making a breakthrough lately. Pubmed is a good place to get information from.

 

[ineffable]

Ugh...

Your body thinks it is in starvation. It doesn't matter what else you are eating.
2. No, it isn't.
3. The point is that these changes aren't good for your body. Your body does counteract it. Of course it does, but it is an unnecessary stress.

You are altering the expression of genes by overexposing yourself to this state, and you clearly don't want to accept the implications of this.

 

[brozek]

Originally Posted by ineffable

Grar

Originally Posted by Rubber

GRRAAAR
This is why so many obese people decide it's too confusing to lose weight.

 

[Eason]

I was just cracking open my journals and looking for studies on ketoacidosis/low carbohydrate diets when I read Rubbers first reply, then I read ineffable's reply, and Rubber's reply to that, and ineffable's to that, noticed that everything had already been discussed ad nauseum, semantics were being argued over, and that white was black and black was white. I decided to make a garden salad with raspberry vinaigrette for dinner with a seared chicken stir fry with fish sauce.

 

[ken]

A new study shows standing on your head drastically reduces belly fat by allowing it to slowly ooze out the eye sockets. The resulting product can then be mixed w/ a raw egg, 1.5 oz whiskey, and your choice of bitters for a delicious post-workout snack.