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Joe Schmoe

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I have nothing against China or the Chinese. The Chinese folks that I know personally are good people. While I earnestly wish that the PRC was a democracy, the fact is that the one-party state in power there has made remarkable progress over the past 30 years and has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of grinding poverty. It's not fair to compare the leadership to Stalin or Pol Pot, it's just not. Tiananmen Square was horrifying -- and it was 33 years ago, and the people who were in charge back then are mostly dead. It's stupid to hold grudges over historical events.

The claims of human rights abuses against those of the Muslim faith seem... uninformed. I don't speak Chinese and have no idea what is going on in the far western reaches of China... and most of the Americans and Europeans who get really upset about this stuff don't speak a word of Chinese, have never met anyone of the Muslim faith from China, and merely spent 5-10 minutes reading a web page or watching a YouTube video on the subject. But this information seems to fulfill a psychological need for a GREAT ENEMY, so they get very emotional about a subject that they actually know very little about. Plus -- and I'm going to be indelicate here -- Muslim radicals often cause a lot of problems in other countries, and if the Chinese are responding to that problem a little too forcibly... at least they aren't plagued with suicide bombers and other forms of terrorism.

That said, I agree with the OP and try to buy MIUSA products whenever possible. Why? Because I like to support American workers. I hope the Chinese continue to prosper and am happy to do business with them -- but I have an obligation to support my fellow countrymen.

Sometimes older people are rubbed the wrong way by this, some people from the Boomer generation have a libertarian streak and see nationalism as sort of outdated and weak. And there was a time when economic protectionism in the US went too far, but... when you see what has happened to the US industrial base, it's heartbreaking. Offshoring, outsourcing, globalization -- these things have caused a lot of people to lose their jobs and there's a lot less economic security today than there was 30 years ago. So I like to step up and buy American whenever I can. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Joe Schmoe

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Color me skeptical. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I feel like I've been repeatedly taken for a sucker by propaganda over the years. During the early 1980s, the Sufi Muslims in Iran were the "bad" guys and the "moderate" Sunni Muslims in Iraq were the "good" guys. Osama Bin Laden is a Sunni, as was Saddam Hussein. In the 1980's the Afghan Mujahideen -- led by Bin Laden -- were brave freedom fighters and our staunch allies in the fight against Communism. Then they morphed into the Taliban and Al Qaeda, fanatical theocrats and terrorists who were now our mortal enemies.

In 1990 George HW Bush told us that Iraqi troops were "throwing babies out of incubators" in Kuwait City. That particular bit of propaganda was so ham-fisted that I literally rolled my eyes when I heard it. The first invasion of Iraq was justified because it was an international coalition, not a unilateral American military action. Then we invaded again -- this time unilaterally -- under Bush II. Even though we were no longer part of an "international coalition," um, you know... the invasion was still OK, according to our wise leaders.

We went into Iraq and Afghanistan to "liberate" those people and turn those countries into modern democracies. It's been 20 years and those countries are just as backward as before -- they didn't turn into Germany, Japan, or South Korea -- and a bunch of our best people have been killed and hurt. We sent decent young men and women over there to help those people and a lot of them got blown up by IED's or shot. A guy I went to high school with was killed over there. It wasn't worth it.

When the national security establishment tried to gin up a war in Syria it failed because people like me were tired of this BS We weren't going to send any more young Americans to "liberate" Syria -- a country that poses absolutely no threat whatsoever to the Continental United States

So you'll have to excuse me if I am a little skeptical about the propaganda of the sort presented in that BBC article. I don't speak Chinese, I've never visited western China, and I have NO IDEA what is going on over there. And I am NOT prepared to take these claims at face value -- I've been burned before.

By the way, you don't speak Chinese, do you? And what exactly do you know about the situation over there, in addition to this article that you Googled? I don't say that to be offensive, or to attack you personally -- seriously, it's a fair question.

I do know that I want to support my fellow American workers. But I'm not going to get all caught up in hating the Chinese because they are "today's Nazis." They aren't today's Nazis. Not even close. The comparison is offensive. And that government faces massive challenges. We shouldn't be too quick to criticize them. For example, the One-Child policy could get very ugly -- but what else were they supposed to do? Let population growth continue unabated, which could lead to tens (or hundreds) of millions of people starving to death in the inevitable famines that were sure to follow? They tried less coercive measures to get people to have fewer kids -- education, preferences in school enrollment, fines, etc. -- nothing worked. It's just wrong to demonize them over some of this stuff, the problems and pressures they face there much greater than the problems we face in the US and Europe.

So count me out if you're going to claim that it's wrong to buy from China because EVIL DICTATORSHIP MUH HUMAN RIGHTS. I try to buy American because I want to support American workers, not because China is our mortal enemy.
 

Bavo

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I am looking for suit recommendations either MTM or RTW that is either made in USA or Europe. I am hoping to spend under 1,000 so likely something that is RTW and that doesn't have skinny lapels (at least 3.5 inches).
I agree with the places mentioned upthread (O'Connell's, J Press, Andover Shop). They all have made in the USA because it is part of their core identity (Ivy/"Trad"/etc). If you do not live nearby one of their B/M stores and want to try something on or get some on the spot alterations/advice, many independent local men's stores offer Samuelsohn products, which tend to be a great value for a fully canvassed jacket. They are made in Canada. Many stores specialize more in sport jackets, so a suit may have to be MTM and push the price north of $1000, but many of these same stores have trunk shows which offer a discount that could help bring it down.
 

Phileas Fogg

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I am looking for suit recommendations either MTM or RTW that is either made in USA or Europe. I am hoping to spend under 1,000 so likely something that is RTW and that doesn't have skinny lapels (at least 3.5 inches).
Where do you live?
 

lemmywinks

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OP could have just ignored the comment and called it a day but still gave away some of his agenda -The way OP said "and how we are letting China take over everything" is the real reason and I think many Americans have always had that kind of Anti-China sentiment and now use human rights violations as justification. I think most Americans are fueled way more by some fear of China than caring about the rights of Uyghurs, but feel free to prove me wrong.

I get why you're doing this but the argument is pretty off base - if we use the same logic then it's like me saying I don't want to buy Made in USA because of the systemic racism, corrupt police officers, and gun violence. A small-medium sized tailoring business that either does stuff in-house or outsources to other tailors doesn't have much of a stake in what's happening in Xinjiang (especially if they're using imported materials)

Suitsupply would honestly be one of your better bets since you have a chance to try things on in person and it's fairly accessible, but it is made in China, and then there are the other suggestions people have above, Spier and Mackay makes decent stuff at a good pricepoint as well.
 

Dennynj24

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OP could have just ignored the comment and called it a day but still gave away some of his agenda -The way OP said "and how we are letting China take over everything" is the real reason and I think many Americans have always had that kind of Anti-China sentiment and now use human rights violations as justification. I think most Americans are fueled way more by some fear of China than caring about the rights of Uyghurs, but feel free to prove me wrong.

I get why you're doing this but the argument is pretty off base - if we use the same logic then it's like me saying I don't want to buy Made in USA because of the systemic racism, corrupt police officers, and gun violence. A small-medium sized tailoring business that either does stuff in-house or outsources to other tailors doesn't have much of a stake in what's happening in Xinjiang (especially if they're using imported materials)

Suitsupply would honestly be one of your better bets since you have a chance to try things on in person and it's fairly accessible, but it is made in China, and then there are the other suggestions people have above, Spier and Mackay makes decent stuff at a good pricepoint as well.
Agree to disagree because you’re wrong on almost everything you said. Also, both your suggestion are made in China.
 

dench127

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I normally wouldn't want to derail a thread but clearly the OP is engaging with this topic as well so here we go...

There was an interesting piece in The Economist a month ago that posited the best way to deal with China's human rights abuses and authoritarian tendencies is to continue engagement with the Chinese economy. Disconnecting brings the danger of cementing China as the clear economic hegemon among developing countries that cannot afford to decouple from the Chinese economy which has greater synergy with developing nations over developed ones, isolating the US and its allies from the rest of the world rather than isolating China. Such a future would strengthen China's authoritarian grip as it becomes further removed from democratic and Western influences via current cultural influences and economic relationships.

The path forward the article charted was to maintain economic engagement with China while fortifying domestic institutions, independent supply chains, and relationships with allies. I imagine the impact of this is that a tough Western stance on human rights would have real teeth and the West would be insulated from retribution.

What does this mean for us? I think it's fair to boycott products that involve a high degree of forced labor, but to Sino-cleanse our lives is likely misguided and requires deeper analysis. Spier & Mackay and Suitsupply are fine with me.
 

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