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Let's Talk About Replica Watches...

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Pastafarian, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. Prince of Paisley

    Prince of Paisley Senior member

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    The bottom line is that hommage watch makers are trying to sell their product on the perception, reputation and design of another maker. Regardless of quality (which is a moot point in a fake - a well executed fake artwork is still as worthless as a badly made one), their motivations are identical to the Chinese industrialist who bangs out a million Rolex-branded fakes and sells them for even less than the hommages.

    Some people can't afford a Rolex/PP/whatever but still want a watch that looks vaguely like their favourite expensive watches and to be of a good quality and not an el-cheapo fake from China.

    You make sense here, even if you didn't mean to. What you are saying here is that an "hommage" watch is just a higher quality "fake" - an ersatz Rolex or whatever. People buy them motivated out of a mixture of desire for something else they can't afford, and aversion to buying something cheap from China. Mix the two and you have an hommage.

    I certainly don't begrudge such people from buying a Debaufre/Steinhart etc. If anyone here does, that's their right, but I think they're a snob for doing so.

    You begrudge people who buy fakes because they are el cheapo, but you are ok with people buying more expensive copies of famous watches because they are Swiss made. I would never buy a watch that looks like "a poor man's..." out of a matter of principle, no matter where it was made. You are happy to buy hommages over fakes (which we've just established are the same thing with a different price tag and country of origin) simply because they are:

    1. more expensive and
    2. hail from Europe rather than China.

    That's pretty snooty in my opinion.
     
  2. aleksandr

    aleksandr Senior member

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    And in my mind, an expensive Patek is technologically far inferior to my Casio Pathfinder that is solar powered, shows the time and date accurately, has a digital compass, thermometer, barometer, chronograph, two alarms, and a countdown timer.

    While technologically far inferior, the movement is still a marvel of engineering in its own right. And some of them complications are [​IMG]
     
  3. Prince of Paisley

    Prince of Paisley Senior member

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    Also, FWIW, I have no hang-ups about people buying fakes or hommages or whatever. I do have a problem with people who buy hommages feeling superior to those with fakes, as both are motivated by the same desire to own something they cannot afford.

    The only difference is one places more value on the origin of the item and the technicalities of what is legal than the other - but the intent in buying a fake or hommage is for all purposes identical.

    So if you like fakes, hommages, knock-offs whatever, go for it. I'm sure there are a million valid reasons to get one over the real thing, and at the end of the day they are all just hunks of metal on our arms. Be more worried about your fake friends than your fake Rolex.
     
  4. Metlin

    Metlin Senior member

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    While technologically far inferior, the movement is still a marvel of engineering in its own right. And some of them complications are [​IMG]

    That may be. But then, you can get a Chinese non-homage non-fake *licensed* (or in some cases, original) movement for a fraction of the price. [​IMG]

    Case in point -- http://www.usseagull.com/EnProduct.a...tle=TOURBILLON
     
  5. sensejae

    sensejae Member

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    okay. it is getting a little annoying to read these replies. Let's keep it simple. Here it goes.

    The argument for homages and decent looking replicas: I just want a "jewelry" that looks a certain way on my wrist. I don't give a $h!t if it has "Rolex" written on it or not. Also don't care if it loses 5 minutes a year. Who are you to tell me that I should not get a look that I can't afford? Who says I need to pay this much money for a certain design? Like how fashion fans seek the exact fit, I am simply looking for an exact design that I have in my mind. It is not related to the prestige of the brand. And sure, I'd rather pay less to acquire this look. And I don't care whether the logo reads "Rolex" or "Watch." If it is an exact replica, I'll admit it anyway. I just don't want to deal with bunch of scam dealers out there and get some watch that falls apart.

    The argument against posers: it's fake. Need i explain why one shouldn't get a replica to pretend like somebody ur not?

    I think most people would agree with what I put together. It was just annoying to read how the two groups were arguing on different basis and blindly marched through 21 pages; anti-homage group kept mentioning posers as the reason one shouldn't get homage or replica and pro-homage people talked about aesthetics. "A" and "B." Yea, two different things.
     
  6. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    That's a nonsensical argument, Prince, and I thought better from you. To suggest a homage is the same as a replica is just plain stupid. If you cannot see the difference, so be it. That is your account and, as I've said before, not my concern. No matter what the reason for someone buying/wearing a homage, what concern is that of yours or anyone else here? For goodness sake, have you not enough of your own problems/concerns to care what others think/feel when they buy/wear a homage watch? Silly.

    I've said my piece, I have nothing further to add to this debate.
     
  7. Prince of Paisley

    Prince of Paisley Senior member

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    I agree there are differences between "hommage" and replica - in the same way there are differences between 2 boy bands: they may have different names but they are the same in spirit and the motivation is the same.

    It's a spirit of the law vs letter of the law thing. I tend to focus more on the former than the latter.
     
  8. bleachboy

    bleachboy Senior member

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    But that does not mean that I'm going to judge and stomp up and down when someone else wears them. To each his or her own.

    ...snip...

    It amazes me that there is such a huge a market built on inferior products that people pay a lot of money for, all the while being told that what they are buying is in fact worth it.


    Okay. Maybe I misunderstood you. I'm still not too sure.

    I agree with you 100% on the functional inferiority of a mechanical wristwatch versus quartz. However, it's a mystique thing. I find mechanical wristwatches fascinating. Your "amazement" amazes me though. Does that amazement only extend to watches, or also to cars, clothes, writing utensils, furniture, brands of coffee, etc?


    This is interesting. I read what you posted about liking the look of the watch and not wanting to pay oodles more for the original, but then why'd you buy some originals and some fakes?

    Because some watches are mechanically interesting as well as beautiful. Those are the ones that I buy. Watches -- like that Golden Ellipse -- that are beautiful but mechanically uninteresting, I can't justify paying huge amounts of money for, but might like the aesthetic enough to buy a fake.

    I think I own four "replica" watches and about six authentic watches, so make of it what you will.
     
  9. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    Cliff notes for those new to this thread: frank discherl, aleksandr, et al obviously have wants beyond their means, and being unable/unwilling to expend the effort required to get the real deals get replicas, or the closest darned thing to replicas which they've justfied as being really homages, and thus automatically 100% cool. Much hilarity ensures when they are called out on their cheesiness, during which along with tortured reasoning, the age-old my quartz watch is superior to your mechanical watch and look at warren buffett he lives in his old house and wears a quartz watch arguments make appearances. Naturally the fact that warren buffett also flies in private jets is left out. Much is also made of the inherent evilness of those who would 'judge' replica/homage wearers as cheesy, meanwhile in other news it turns out that judging others by their actions is perfectly acceptable and in fact an essential part of civilised society. Meanwhile the truth makes an appearance:
    The bottom line is that hommage watch makers are trying to sell their product on the perception, reputation and design of another maker.
    ...and bleachboy makes possibly the only solid argument for homage/replica watches - that they are viable alternative for those who can't be bothered to spend much $$$ on a collection of design features that is otherwise horologically uninteresting - in other words, costume jewellery that happens to tell the time. And finally in an example of what must be a homage to irony, frank discherl labels those who call out homage owners as snobs, while he himself is snobby about the provenance of those chinese replica watch operations run by evil people who only care about profit, as his homage watch is swiss made and thus 100% cool. And of course, not churned out in mass quantities in factories, nor sold for profit.
     
  10. Metlin

    Metlin Senior member

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    Okay. Maybe I misunderstood you. I'm still not too sure. I agree with you 100% on the functional inferiority of a mechanical wristwatch versus quartz. However, it's a mystique thing. I find mechanical wristwatches fascinating. Your "amazement" amazes me though. Does that amazement only extend to watches, or also to cars, clothes, writing utensils, furniture, brands of coffee, etc?
    Why, indeed. I'm continually amazed at people paying inordinate amounts of money for inferior products while being told that they are getting their value. Case in point -- our government.
    Bzzzzzzzzzzzt
    TL;DR However, after an all-nighter spent reviewing compliance jargon, I just read your sig as TITS FOR SALE. Anyway, off the gym it is.
     
  11. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    Why, indeed. I'm continually amazed at people paying inordinate amounts of money for inferior products while being told that they are getting their value.
    Your assumption is fatally flawed because you assume (wrongly) that people who buy Pateks et al buy them to tell the time, and the alternative that you proffer as a panacea - quartz - has already been superceded by something that nearly all of us here own, a mobile phone that self-synchronises time with your carrier network. It also shows that you just don't get mechanical watches, which is sad.
     
  12. Patek

    Patek Senior member

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    Well, it has all been said by now.

    Everyone has their opinion and they have the right to it.

    I stand by my opinion in that I am against fakes in general. To me fakes are like religion: the people who have it know it is fake but they choose to pretend to believe it anyway. However, that is a whole different can of worms.

    I respect other's religious beliefs and their beliefs in their fake anything, it doesn't mean that I agree with them.

    To each his own.
     
  13. Metlin

    Metlin Senior member

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    Your assumption is fatally flawed because you assume (wrongly) that people who buy Pateks et al buy them to tell the time, and the alternative that you proffer as a panacea - quartz - has already been superceded by something that nearly all of us here own, a mobile phone that self-synchronises time with your carrier network. It also shows that you just don't get mechanical watches, which is sad.
    Au contraire. I understand perfectly well why people buy luxury goods -- and little pieces of jewelry that happen to be mechanical trinkets valued at hundreds of thousands of dollars. They are the perfect example of positional goods. As such, those that can afford said goods feel that the value of their investment is diluted by fakes and replicas. My grandfather was one such man, and left behind enough vintage watches to be passed down to his kids, grandkids, and then some. Let's face it, true aficionados are out there taking apart and building watches, and would have desks that look like this. (And before you draw an analogy to clothes, please remember that clothes need to be customized to fit well -- watches don't have a lot in the way of customization going on... most of them are RTW anyway.) That said, I definitely appreciate the great engineering and skill that goes into making a good watch. I understand that they are works of art, and little pieces of engineering marvel. I just don't care to get militant or pretend that their primary function is to be anything other than a status symbol.
    Well, it has all been said by now. Everyone has their opinion and they have the right to it. I stand by my opinion in that I am against fakes in general. To me fakes are like religion: the people who have it know it is fake but they choose to pretend to believe it anyway. However, that is a whole different can of worms. I respect other's religious beliefs and their beliefs in their fake anything, it doesn't mean that I agree with them. To each his own.
    And... I'm an indifferent (and jaded) atheist. So, there you have it.
     
  14. OldSchoolCharm

    OldSchoolCharm Senior member

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    If you want to add another wrinkle to this thread, look at the exchange rate of the dollar driving up the price of Rolex! A new stainless steel daytona was $1175 in 1986. Today a new stainless steel daytona is $10,400. In 1986 one dollar would get 2.43 German Marks. By 1999 1 dollar would get 1.655 German Marks. After the conversion to the Euro, one dollar would get 1.11 Euros in 2002. Today one dollar will get 0.76 euros.

    If it was inflation at work, $1175 in 1986 dollars would be about $2400 today at 3% inflation. The $10,400 price is not explained by inflation. It is the weak dollar that is screwing all Americans.

    A Rolex was no big deal in the 1980's. People got them as gifts for 30 years of serivce at work. But that was also a time when many companies gave yearly 5% Christmas bonuses. That has been replaced with companies leaving the USA because of free trade, and people taking jobs that pay half as much. I LOL at all the programmer buddies that were making 6 figures, who were pro NAFTA and free trade, "screw the workers we don't need them" attitudes. Then India and Malaysia started producing programmers just as good as Americans and those jobs left. Now they are crying but nobody is left to hear them.
     
  15. RSS

    RSS Senior member

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    ^^^As long as we're on inflation ... my frist Savile Row suit for which I paid -- as opposed to my father paying -- was $700.
     
  16. acridsheep

    acridsheep Senior member

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    If you want to add another wrinkle to this thread, look at the exchange rate of the dollar driving up the price of Rolex! A new stainless steel daytona was $1175 in 1986. Today a new stainless steel daytona is $10,400. In 1986 one dollar would get 2.43 German Marks. By 1999 1 dollar would get 1.655 German Marks. After the conversion to the Euro, one dollar would get 1.11 Euros in 2002. Today one dollar will get 0.76 euros.

    If it was inflation at work, $1175 in 1986 dollars would be about $2400 today at 3% inflation. The $10,400 price is not explained by inflation. It is the weak dollar that is screwing all Americans.

    A Rolex was no big deal in the 1980's. People got them as gifts for 30 years of serivce at work. But that was also a time when many companies gave yearly 5% Christmas bonuses. That has been replaced with companies leaving the USA because of free trade, and people taking jobs that pay half as much. I LOL at all the programmer buddies that were making 6 figures, who were pro NAFTA and free trade, "screw the workers we don't need them" attitudes. Then India and Malaysia started producing programmers just as good as Americans and those jobs left. Now they are crying but nobody is left to hear them.


    Wrinkle added. Well done.
     
  17. OldSchoolCharm

    OldSchoolCharm Senior member

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    If you want to add another wrinkle to this thread, look at the exchange rate of the dollar driving up the price of Rolex! A new stainless steel daytona was $1175 in 1986. Today a new stainless steel daytona is $10,400. In 1986 one dollar would get 2.43 German Marks. By 1999 1 dollar would get 1.655 German Marks. After the conversion to the Euro, one dollar would get 1.11 Euros in 2002. Today one dollar will get 0.76 euros.

    If it was inflation at work, $1175 in 1986 dollars would be about $2400 today at 3% inflation. The $10,400 price is not explained by inflation. It is the weak dollar that is screwing all Americans.

    A Rolex was no big deal in the 1980's. People got them as gifts for 30 years of serivce at work. But that was also a time when many companies gave yearly 5% Christmas bonuses. That has been replaced with companies leaving the USA because of free trade, and people taking jobs that pay half as much. I LOL at all the programmer buddies that were making 6 figures, who were pro NAFTA and free trade, "screw the workers we don't need them" attitudes. Then India and Malaysia started producing programmers just as good as Americans and those jobs left. Now they are crying but nobody is left to hear them.


    The guy who pays $300+ for a replica would probably pay $2400 for the Rolex made version if the weak dollar did not drive the price up to $10,000+. We're not talking about guys who pay $20 for a cheap fake that looks like crap. We are talking about a quality replica.

    The $300 replica version will fool 99% of the people. If a salesman could fool 99% of the people to believe him, he would be a millionaire. So what is so bad about a watch that fools 99% of the people? The guy who wants to pick up the brunette who bleached her hair blond, with the big fake tits, who is a gold digger; that guy will benefit from a good replica. Then when he doesn't call her the morning after, she will really believe that she lost another rich stud.
     
  18. OldSchoolCharm

    OldSchoolCharm Senior member

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    Sure. I've had it about a year, it runs fine. All the chronograph functions work perfectly. It's heavy like a Rolex, it has the crown laser etched on the crystal, the serial numbers all over, etc, etc. There is no such thing as a Swiss made replica. Some may or may not have Lemania or ETA movements. Who knows -- they're counterfeiting the watch, I'm sure they could etch "ETA" on whatever movement. It is very well made.

    The "grades" thing is bull too. There are two grades: Crappy and good. Buy a good one. The crappy ones are really crappy. The good ones are indistinguishable and intended to deceive (holograms, packaging, etc).

    PM me if you want to know where I got it.

    [​IMG]

    p.s. I am the dork who synced the second hand and the chronograph hand. It works like a normal chrono.



    That is a beautiful replica. It may be nicer than the original!
     
  19. RSS

    RSS Senior member

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    The $300 replica version will fool 99% of the people. If a salesman could fool 99% of the people to believe him, he would be a millionaire. So what is so bad about a watch that fools 99% of the people? The guy who wants to pick up the brunette who bleached her hair blond, with the big fake tits, who is a gold digger; that guy will benefit from a good replica. Then when he doesn't call her the morning after, she will really believe that she lost another rich stud.
    What's the point of fooling people ... you can't fool yourself? You may not think this matters ... but ultimately it does ... it's called low self-esteem.

    Of course, I suppose one could make an art of being a fraud. Sebastian Horsley has certainly made an art of pretending to be an artist ... so much so that he may well be one.
     
  20. Reevolving

    Reevolving Senior member

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    Which basically tells you just how overpriced some of these so-called movements and complications are. [​IMG]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmM-u...QL&playnext=12 Interesting comment by some guy:
    ...someone buying a (well-made) fibreglass replica with a Hyundai engine and going up to a Ferrari owners meetup and telling them all of the above, .
    Terrible example. The Ferrari goes 200 mph. The Hyundai doesn't. No one would ever try to pass off a quasi-Ferrari with a Honda motor in it A Rolex and Folex do not have such a massive disparity in functionality.
    OK, I am new to this but a lot of the guys at watchuseek who have replicas also seem to have a stable of Rolex's and other "Original" watches as well.
    Uh huh. Suuuuure they do. I can't explain why, but I think wearing an "homage" is worse than wearing a replica.. While I wouldn't wear either, I'd much rather wear a fake Rolex than a brand that simply looks like Rolex. I didn't realize the Parniss was an IWC and Panerai clone brand. I just liked how it looked, but I won't wear that if it's supposed to look like some $10k watch.
     

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