Lets talk about COFFEE

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by Flambeur, Dec 2, 2009.

  1. b1os

    b1os Senior member

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    There's no Starbucks in Germany that has a Clover machine as far as I know. I've read that some café in Berlin has a Clover, one of the last models before Starbucks devoured it. Not sure whether it's still in use.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013


  2. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    $11K and I have to agitate by hand? WTF?

    I'll try it if I pass a SB's.

    lefty

     


  3. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    So I've been trying an experiment at home to test the theory that Clevers are no good because they lose too much heat, but it gave me an idea about pB and lefty's recent coffee woes. Did the temperatures in NYC (and your homes) drop recently?

    I've been doing the steeping of the coffee grounds in an Espro carafe, which is a steel vacuum-insulated container, and then pouring it out into a Clever that has its valve released so it acts like a traditional pourover. The theory is that the insulated Espro would maintain the extracting brew's temps instead of leaking it out like the plastic body of the Clever. After the extraction is done, I'd just filter the grounds out by using the Clever and its paper filter: everything was dumped into the Clever all at once.

    I've also been measuring temps in the Espro to see how much temperature I lost or kept compared to a Clever. The Clever drops well over 10 degrees when you use it normally, but so does the Espro! It turns out that the heat mass of a cold Espro in 65F room temperature is enough to bring water which is around 211F down to the low-to-mid 190s. That explains why the coffee didn't taste markedly different than the normal Clever process because the temps are largely the same.

    I then warmed up the Espro first with hot tap water (around 117F), and the temperature when I poured the 211F water into the Espro was in the high 190s, almost 200F. The coffee was very different this time: much sweeter, with more floral notes, and less acidic.

    Anyway, I know there are lots of things wrong with my experiment, but as an experiment, have you guys tried warming up your French press before using it?

    Also, it's enlightening how much temperature drop there is, and how seemingly important it is to warm up the vessel where the extraction takes place. Temp drops seem to equalize various methods, even ones using fancy vacuum-insulated containers. This would also seem to indicate that most methods will also underextract since the temps will tend to be too low.

    And though it pains me to acknowledge any advantage to pourover, this would seem to be one of their advantages, especially when you use a pulse method, where you pour enough water just to cover the grounds, and wait till the liquid drains before filling again. The pours following the initial pour would be at a high temperature since the first pour should bring the grounds and container up to temperature. This assumes that your kettle isn't losing heat.
     


  4. b1os

    b1os Senior member

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    ^I've had that theory too.


    It might be time to get an Espro Press.
     


  5. scottcw

    scottcw Senior member

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    Always.
     


  6. b1os

    b1os Senior member

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    Ok, brewing in a Motta pitcher in a warm water bath is actually a stupid idea. Drains heat faster than air. Damn physics. 65°C when I filtered it. Still, made for an interesting cup. :uhoh: Maybe, if I feel crazy tomorrow, I might try a simmering water bath. That way, it should really stay constant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013


  7. Gibonius

    Gibonius Senior member

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    I usually wash out my metal bodied French press with hot water right before I brew. It becomes noticeably warm by doing so. Most of the heat loss is going to go into warming up the vessel (not by loss to the air), so this reduces that effect. My French press is also a double-walled thermos style anyway, so even less loss to the air.

    I don't notice much difference when I don't do this though.
     


  8. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm still not buying the idea that darker beans need higher temps. Seems like Kevin is the only person that is saying this, but it goes against logic honestly. Darker beans are softer, why would they need hotter temps and vice versus? Just doesn't make sense and every time I raise the temp it seems to make the issue worse. I think the consistency of the mto could be an issue or even the grind. Virtuoso is a decent grinder but some smaller particles could be extracting too fast while other larger more uniform grinds too little. Who knows. Sweet Maria's does say the the virtuoso gets a bit uneven at more course settings.
     


  9. joshuadowen

    joshuadowen Senior member

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    I can't think of any reason you'd want to use hotter water for darker beans. The darker the roast, the greater likelihood of brewing overly bitter coffee. I'd want to do everything I could to avoid this, including lowering the water temp a bit.
     


  10. Hollywars

    Hollywars Senior member

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    Anyone into turkish style coffee? I went out with a Bosnian girl and she really turned me onto it.
     


  11. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It is a thing if done correctly with the cardamom and all of that, but to me it isn't even in the same category as standard coffee. Like a different drink entirely.
     


  12. size 38R

    size 38R Senior member

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    ^^^ Mr booth, Did you try the less than 5 second timing vs more than 20 seconds? the taste is easily noticable. always prepare the milk first. so it is ready at the point of last drop.
     


  13. b1os

    b1os Senior member

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  14. size 38R

    size 38R Senior member

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    if you run the shot. -THEN prepare the milk, the coffee will be ruined. if your milk is done correctly (1st), you can work it while the shot is running. and get it milked in less than 5 seconds of oxydisation. try it out.
     


  15. b1os

    b1os Senior member

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    What are you even talking about?

    Edit: Oh, you edited that post on the last page. It still doesn't make much sense to me, at all. I'm also going to assume that you are the only one talking about espressi/cappuccini while PB's and lefty's problem refer to "filtered" coffee.
    And really, espresso oxidizes and turns bitter in five seconds? I suppose your milk turns sour in four seconds too, right?
    Your edited post also clarifies a few things about you. I thought the "drooling" part was meant to be funny, but given your comments regarding indesertum's cappuccini (that is not a latte, FWIW), I have to assume the drooling comment is a product of your pride.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013


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