lefty's random dog thread.

[lefty]

Originally Posted by JLibourel

Just shows agitation work is not without its risk.

I just wonder if that Mal "Vyatkin's Glock" was bred by Alex Vyatkin, who was one of the leading Presa breeders in the USA (and may still be for all I know).

I think that is Alex who now lives in the Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Stazy

Why the hell would he hit the dog with an unprotected arm? Kind of had it coming, no?

He did a few things wrong. That dog should have come in for a bark and hold but when he took the sleeve the handler should have corrected him off. The hit by the helper was slow, lazy and angry which allowed the dog to redirect. A helper can correct, but not with the stick. You're trying to get the dog to ignore the stick later not teach him to avoid it. Yes, the helper had it coming and it was a fair bite.

Alex had a reputation of being very hard on dogs. He would hang dogs that pissed him off until the passed out. I was running a PP tourney at a rare breed molosser show when one of his proteges kicked his dog who was doing badly in the OB portion. I threw him off the field.

lefty

 

[Stazy]

I am impressed by how much you know about dogs. lol

I've been wanting to get a dog lately but I've never actually had a pet before so I'm a little hesitant to make the commitment. Mostly I'm worried I won't know how to properly train it. Any suggestions as to what breed of dog I should be considering as a first-time pet owner living in the city? I'm a big fan of Basenji's but my understanding is that they are a bit of a handful...

 

[JLibourel]

Originally Posted by lefty

I think that is Alex who now lives in the Ukraine.

Alex had a reputation of being very hard on dogs. He would hang dogs that pissed him off until the passed out. I was running a PP tourney at a rare breed molosser show when one of his proteges kicked his dog who was doing badly in the OB portion. I threw him off the field.

lefty

I can recall Alex got a lot of flak at the time of the Diane Whipple case because the dam of Bane was a ***** of his breeding. Alex claimed in a lengthy post on Bandog Banter that he had investigated the matter and found that there was a lot of temperamental instability upline from Bane's sire (thereby exculpating himself and the dam he had bred). He also said that he did some temperament testing on a litter brother of Bane's that was supposed to be mild-tempered and not even dog-aggressive. When he tried a little mild agitation work with the dog, he went utterly insane--almost like a rage syndrome. If the defense attorneys in that trial had done their homework and been able to introduce Vyatkin's testimony, the defendants might have walked or at least gotten off with considerably lighter sentences. They were certainly bizarre, creepy and perverse people, but I still think they were the victims of a legal lynching.

I know hanging dogs was very much a part of the old Koehler method. As I understand it, Koehler used it as a last resort for very hot PP dogs that were owner/handler aggressive. I think a lot of his disciples got carried away with it and were much more inclined to use hanging as a corrective for lesser offences. The Koehler legacy is still very strong in California, where a lot of the training is very force-based, often moreso than necessary in my opinion (although some force-based corrections are doubtless necessary with any dog, especially a large, powerful, high-dominance one).

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by Stazy

I've been wanting to get a dog lately but I've never actually had a pet before so I'm a little hesitant to make the commitment. Mostly I'm worried I won't know how to properly train it. Any suggestions as to what breed of dog I should be considering as a first-time pet owner living in the city? I'm a big fan of Basenji's but my understanding is that they are a bit of a handful...

That could be a few hundred breeds of dog. You have to be more specific as to size, traits and what you want to do with it.

Originally Posted by JLibourel

I can recall Alex got a lot of flak at the time of the Diane Whipple case because the dam of Bane was a ***** of his breeding. Alex claimed in a lengthy post on Bandog Banter that he had investigated the matter and found that there was a lot of temperamental instability upline from Bane's sire (thereby exculpating himself and the dam he had bred). He also said that he did some temperament testing on a litter brother of Bane's that was supposed to be mild-tempered and not even dog-aggressive. When he tried a little mild agitation work with the dog, he went utterly insane--almost like a rage syndrome. If the defense attorneys in that trial had done their homework and been able to introduce Vyatkin's testimony, the defendants might have walked or at least gotten off with considerably lighter sentences. They were certainly bizarre, creepy and perverse people, but I still think they were the victims of a legal lynching.

I know hanging dogs was very much a part of the old Koehler method. As I understand it, Koehler used it as a last resort for very hot PP dogs that were owner/handler aggressive. I think a lot of his disciples got carried away with it and were much more inclined to use hanging as a corrective for lesser offences. The Koehler legacy is still very strong in California, where a lot of the training is very force-based, often moreso than necessary in my opinion (although some force-based corrections are doubtless necessary with any dog, especially a large, powerful, high-dominance one).

Alex comes from the Ukraine where they are tough on dogs. I shouldn't give the impression that he was hanging dogs left and right, but hard asshole dogs coming out of those breeding programs sometimes need hard handlers. Food and praise will get you seriously hurt.

Very few people actually read Koehler and understood his methods. Koehler was firm but fair. He broke complex exercises down into simple parts that the dog was trained on by using anticipation of reward or punishment and therefore his own choice of learned behavior. Corrections only came when the dog fucked up an exercise it knew. His approach for teaching a surging dog is still the best there is, however, if you use his methods today in a dog park you'll get people calling the authorities.

The Foundation (chapter 3) for The Koehler Method of Dog Training is a process using the dog's own "right of choice." Allow me to outline the foundation work for those not familiar with it (it's a real attention getter). As early as day number three, the dog is brought onto the training field from a place of solitary confinement where he has been for about two hours. He has not eaten in 4 hours, nor has he consumed any water for one hour. He is wearing a properly fitted choke collar and a fifteen foot longe line. You arrive at a predetermined position on the field, which you have selected as a starting point.

While at the starting point you place the thumb of your right hand into the loop of the longe line and close your fist around the handle. Place your left hand directly under your right and close a fist around the line and let the balance of the line drop to the ground. Now, silently move toward a fixed object of reference 50 feet ahead. Oh but wait, you exclaim, does this author not understand that if I drop the fifteen feet of slack to the dog he will move directly toward anything that might distract him? Yes, and so did Mr. Koehler. We fully recognize, as should you, that the dog who goes toward the distraction does so as a matter of choice.

You too are granted the right of choice, and in this case, your choice will be to turn away from the dog's line of travel and move, with equal determination, in a direction opposite his. Before long, the slack is consumed, and the dog is made very uncomfortable. His good senses will tell him that the resulting discomfort was something other than what he expected when he chose to go in the direction of the distraction. His instincts will be to somehow lessen the discomfort around his neck, and when he finally moves toward you, also an act of his choosing, the line will indeed slacken and the dog will have made a more correct choice; one which results in comfort.

With only six days of longe line work, the dog has learned that moving in your direction is more comfortable than moving toward the distraction; or the dog has learned that moving toward the distraction results in discomfort. This experience will teach your dog that comfort or discomfort are the direct results of the choices he makes.

At this point Koehler will have you teach your dog how to make decisions based on exercising his new understanding of choice making. A dog making decisions? Yes, and we can prove that a dog is capable of utilizing his decision making process with as little as a single learning experience.

Once the dog has learned that his choices result in comfort or discomfort, we can teach him to make desirable decisions with the expectation of reward by simultaneously teaching him to anticipate punishment as the result of an undesirable decision. This is done by teaching the dog that there is a place where all good things happen and that staying in that place is a very pleasant thing to do. The dog learns simultaneously, that being away from that place results in something less than pleasurable. What is taught is free heeling.

Now wait just a dog gone minute, surely this author doesn't propose to teach a dog to heel free if he does not yet know how to heel on leash, or does he? Yes, he most certainly does. By intention, the teaching of the heel exercise has nothing at all to do with teaching the dog to heel on, or off-lead. The fact that the dog learns to "heel" is a matter of the process, but the intent is to teach the dog to use his decision making powers to remain in a place where he expects comfort and reward. Mr. Koehler once told me that teaching a dog to perform an act (such as heeling) means little, you simply end up with a dog subordinate to the act itself; but teaching a dog to make decisions which result in good heeling means much more, as the dog then becomes subordinate to right action.

To teach the decision making process, we bring the dog to a location where we have plenty of open space. The dog must have his choke collar, 6' leash, and a foundation in choice making. Place the dog on your left side and allow the leash to hang loosely from the collar into your right hand where only as much of the slack is collected to allow you to walk without tripping over it. Place your right hand on your belly button and put your left hand on your head (a euphemism for "˜keep it off the leash').

Take "˜mark' on an object about two hundred yards ahead of you, give your dog a single heel command while simultaneously stepping forward with your left foot, and start moving in the direction of the "˜marker.' Ideally, your dog will stay comfortably close to your left side, the dog's head traveling along with the centerline of your body. This position is what Mr. Koehler called "pleasant heaven" (for purpose of illustration I shall refer to it as the "˜zone'). Your dog will likely do one of four things; he may forge, that is to say he will move ahead of the zone, at which point you will drop the slack in the leash, execute a right-about turn, and move quickly in the opposite direction, collect up your slack as you move toward another marker straight ahead. The dog is now aware that he is not to move in front of you, he may then try to move into you, in which case you will execute a left turn directly into the head of the dog, now take a mark on your new direction and proceed toward it. Your dog is now aware that he should not be so close as to feel you (so that he may "keep tabs" on you through his sense of touch) and thus moves wide, or starts to lag behind, in either case you will drop the slack and execute a right turn, collect up your slack as you move toward another marker straight ahead. Your dog is now aware that he may not drop back, or move wide (so as to keep you focused in his peripheral vision).

lefty

 

[lefty]

Jan,

here's some new blood at Red Star. Handler has the Ring 3 on this dog and is playing in Schuzthund. If I remember correctly I gave this handler his first tips/training in suit work.

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Every once in while you come across some Bulldogs that look like they can do something. Case in point:

Nice little dogs.

lefty

 

[NH_Clark]

not the best pic.. but this is my 3 year old Havanese, Milo. Smart, happy and enjoys training/learning new things

 

[Flambeur]

Originally Posted by lefty

Jan,

here's some new blood at Red Star. Handler has the Ring 3 on this dog and is playing in Schuzthund. If I remember correctly I gave this handler his first tips/training in suit work.

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Every once in while you come across some Bulldogs that look like they can do something. Case in point:

Nice little dogs.

lefty

Wow, that's so awesome.

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by NH_Clark

not the best pic.. but this is my 3 year old Havanese, Milo. Smart, happy and enjoys training/learning new things.[/IMG]

Cute dog.

Originally Posted by Flambeur

Wow, that's so awesome.

No kidding. If these guys can whelp naturally I'm going to look into one for the house.

lefty

 

[Flambeur]

Originally Posted by lefty

No kidding. If these guys can whelp naturally I'm going to look into one for the house.

lefty

Keep us updated.

 

[Douglas]

this thread makes me pretty sick to my stomach.

 

[Flambeur]

Originally Posted by Douglas

this thread makes me pretty sick to my stomach.

?????

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by Douglas

this thread makes me pretty sick to my stomach.

Not enough cat pics?

This is Francis Metcalf teaching his Am Bull Chomsky a new behavior.

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Francis is an excllent trainer and all around good dog guy.

Here's Chomsky's grandfather Gubby at a French Ring trial. I used Gubby for a ring decoy cert and he is a tough little customer.

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lefty

 

[dcg]

My dog appears to be feeling better; let her run for a bit on Sunday after a month of rest from the shoulder injury. She didn't seem to be limping; if so it was minor and much better than before. My dad decided to pretend to run from her to get her to chase him. He's about 250 lbs; she's 49. She took him down. Ran straight into him. I was worried he had a concussion from his head hitting the ground but apparently he's ok.

 

[Rambo]

Originally Posted by Flambeur

Keep us updated.
+1. Those bulldogs look like they could actually run around a room without getting winded. A guy in my building has a bulldog and its has the energy level of a 90 year old woman. Sad.

 

[lefty]

Originally Posted by dcg

My dog appears to be feeling better; let her run for a bit on Sunday after a month of rest from the shoulder injury. She didn't seem to be limping; if so it was minor and much better than before.

My dad decided to pretend to run from her to get her to chase him. He's about 250 lbs; she's 49. She took him down. Ran straight into him. I was worried he had a concussion from his head hitting the ground but apparently he's ok.

Good to know, but continue to keep her confined for another week just to be sure.

Sounds like she needs to enter a hard hitting contest.

Here's Gubby again in a HH contest bringing down some big guys.

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And here's Francis and Chomsky again screwing around with some OB for clown school.

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lefty