lefty's random dog thread.

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by lefty, Mar 22, 2009.

  1. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    Nice shooting by the Camden police. 33 shots for an 8 month old pit bull puppy.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...cal&id=8077437

    Aycox says police investigators told her 33 rounds were fired.

    "The cop said he felt like he was going to attack him," said Aycox, "and he just shot at him. The one cop hollered 'don't shoot him', but he shot him. When he shot him, the dog fell to the ground, was shaking and crying, but he just stood over top of him and kept shooting repeatedly."

    "He just came running out of the house," said neighbor Kelly McCulley. "He plays with the kids all the time. He saw all the kids up there and that's what he thought, that he was coming to play, and they just shot him over and over and over."

    The dog was hit and fell in one area, but the bullets sprayed elsewhere, shooting out the window of a van that several women were getting ready to get into. The women say there were children everywhere.

    Neighbors say several other vehicles were hit, and the bullets pierced a nearby home, hitting a window and a wall inside.

    The family was inside watching television and had no idea what was going on.

    "It was just crazy. It was like a war zone out there," said the resident of the home.​


    Sad fact is, it seems cops just lo-o-ove to kill dogs. Incidents of this sort seem to be very common.

    Not just dogs, though. We had a really ugly shooting here in Long Beach in December in which a drunk, fooling around with a hose nozzle, was shot to death by cops hiding in a nearby house. (A neighbor had thought the hose nozzle might be a "small revolver.") This occurred in broad daylight at a range of only a few feet. That damn nozzle looked like no handgun known to man! I would expect even a cop to know the difference. (Contrary to popular opinion, most cops know little to nothing about guns.) I was recently angered to learn that these cowardly, trigger-happy incompetents are back patrolling the streets without any disciplinary repercussions.

    I'm no cop-hater. Some of my closest personal friends have had law-enforcement backgrounds, but I sure don't buy into this post 9/11 notion that someone is a "hero" just because he (or she) wears a badge and uniform!
     


  2. BP348

    BP348 Senior member

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    Sad fact is, it seems cops just lo-o-ove to kill dogs. Incidents of this sort seem to be very common. We had a really ugly shooting here in Long Beach in December in which a drunk, fooling around with a hose nozzle, was shot to death by cops hiding in a nearby house. (A neighbor had thought the hose nozzle might be a "small revolver.") This occurred in broad daylight at a range of only a few feet. That damn nozzle looked like no handgun known to man! I would expect even a cop to know the difference. (Contrary to popular opinion, most cops know little to nothing about guns.) I was recently angered to learn that these cowardly, trigger-happy incompetents are back patrolling the streets without any disciplinary repercussions.
    You're leaving out several important facts. You have as guy who's holding a hose nozzle, was he facing away from the cop when he walked up on him? Was the cop able to see what was in this guys hand prior to him turning and pointing it at the cop? Verbal warning to show the cop his hands? I'm going to have to disagree, if I was a cop and I walked up on someone who turned and pointed a metallic object at me that I have to identify in the span of a second or two and the result could be me dieing and never seeing my family again, I'm going to do what the cop did and shoot first and ask questions later. Was the shooting ruled unjustified? If not how was the Police Officer cowardly or incompetent? Your Monday morning Quarterbacking is fine for a web forum but remember you have minutes, hours, or days to come up with your conclusion, the cop had less then 2 seconds, Remember to the cop it was reported by the neighbor to be a small pistol. Who's incompetent there the neighbor or the cop? I think you need to take a walk in those shoes before you talk some more shit about something you know nothing about. I don't agree with the cops love to kill dogs comment either.
     


  3. dcg

    dcg Senior member

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    You're leaving out several important facts. You have as guy who's holding a hose nozzle, was he facing away from the cop when he walked up on him? Was the cop able to see what was in this guys hand prior to him turning and pointing it at the cop? Verbal warning to show the cop his hands? I'm going to have to disagree, if I was a cop and I walked up on someone who turned and pointed a metallic object at me that I have to identify in the span of a second or two and the result could be me dieing and never seeing my family again, I'm going to do what the cop did and shoot first and ask questions later. Was the shooting ruled unjustified? If not how was the Police Officer cowardly or incompetent? Your Monday morning Quarterbacking is fine for a web forum but remember you have minutes, hours, or days to come up with your conclusion, the cop had less then 2 seconds, Remember to the cop it was reported by the neighbor to be a small pistol. Who's incompetent there the neighbor or the cop? I think you need to take a walk in those shoes before you talk some more shit about something you know nothing about. I don't agree with the cops love to kill dogs comment either.
    According to the CDC, dogs kill about 16 people per year. (paragraph two, line two). I have admittedly never seen any aggregated statistics, but I suspect the number of dogs killed by police officers yearly in "self defense" is substantially higher. I don't mean to suggest that a dog's life is equal to that of a human (far from it), but that many police officers are quick to kill a dog in situations where that level of force is completely uncalled for. This was an eight month old puppy that apparently terrorized that neighborhood to such an extent that the local children have set up a memorial outside the owners' house! If these kids aren't afraid, why does the police officer feel the need to fire 33 shots? There are no doubt many dog loving police officers. This particular police officer is a chickenshit who is a danger to his community. They're fortunate that the puppy was the only casualty.
     


  4. BP348

    BP348 Senior member

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    According to the CDC, dogs kill about 16 people per year. (paragraph two, line two). I have admittedly never seen any aggregated statistics, but I suspect the number of dogs killed by police officers yearly in "self defense" is substantially higher.

    I don't mean to suggest that a dog's life is equal to that of a human (far from it), but that many police officers are quick to kill a dog in situations where that level of force is completely uncalled for.


    I'm sure you could go just about any city or town and find that the locals killed at least that many dogs, some I'm sure didn't deserve it. But what are the alternatives?

    Unlike with dealing with people a cops options when dealing with a dog pretty much go from verbal (to the dog and to the owner) commands to lethal force. There really isn't any middle ground.
     


  5. NorCal

    NorCal Senior member

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    I'm sure you could go just about any city or town and find that the locals killed at least that many dogs, some I'm sure didn't deserve it. But what are the alternatives?

    Unlike with dealing with people a cops options when dealing with a dog pretty much go from verbal (to the dog and to the owner) commands to lethal force. There really isn't any middle ground.


    This is just flat wrong on so many levels. He could have used pepper spray. He could have used his night stick. He could have used COMMON SENSE. Even if the dog had been a danger it's still just one dog while he is a fully grown man with several weapons at his disposal. God forbid that he might actually have to face any small amount of danger, I mean he's only a cop.

    And even if he felt he had to shoot it, 33 shots? He put the whole neighborhood in mortal danger. Who was he protecting? Himself? He's paid to be put into harms way. If he has to get rough with a dog and risk a bite, so be it, that's his job.
    Spraying 33 shots all over hells half acre did far more damage and was far more risky than any dog could ever be.
     


  6. djblisk

    djblisk Senior member

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    There is no reason that cop shouldn't be fired over this. 33 shots? thats just plain stupid.
     


  7. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    You're leaving out several important facts. You have as guy who's holding a hose nozzle, was he facing away from the cop when he walked up on him? Was the cop able to see what was in this guys hand prior to him turning and pointing it at the cop? Verbal warning to show the cop his hands?

    I'm going to have to disagree, if I was a cop and I walked up on someone who turned and pointed a metallic object at me that I have to identify in the span of a second or two and the result could be me dieing and never seeing my family again, I'm going to do what the cop did and shoot first and ask questions later.

    Was the shooting ruled unjustified? If not how was the Police Officer cowardly or incompetent?

    Your Monday morning Quarterbacking is fine for a web forum but remember you have minutes, hours, or days to come up with your conclusion, the cop had less then 2 seconds, Remember to the cop it was reported by the neighbor to be a small pistol. Who's incompetent there the neighbor or the cop?

    I think you need to take a walk in those shoes before you talk some more shit about something you know nothing about.

    I don't agree with the cops love to kill dogs comment either.


    In point of fact, I know a helluva lot about the deployment of the combat firearm. I have third (top) level certification from Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, and Front Sight. I am a grad of Mas Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. I trained with Jim Cirillo and a number of other notable trainers. It sounds pretty apparent from your snotty comments you have no idea who I am. A lot of people here do!

    Let's review the facts. Doug Zerby, the victim, had been drinking. He knew he was drunk and didn't want to drive home. He went to a friend's house to ask him to drive him home. The friend was not at home, and so Zerby sat on the stoop of his friend's place. This was in a backyard on private property. He was fooling around with the hose nozzle.* A nervous neighbor called the cops, believing the hose nozzle might be a "small revolver" although she said she knew nothing about guns. The cops arrived and took cover in adjacent houses. They called for backup, a chopper, a shrink and I don't know what else. They didn't have "2 seconds," they had 10 full minutes to observe Zerby and the hose nozzle! You'd think it might occur to one of these incompetents, "Hey, that doesn't look like a gun." Threat identification is a very, very important part of firearms training and deployment. These cops failed miserably. Eventually, Zerby allegedly pointed the nozzle in the direction of one of the houses where one of the cops was hiding. There is reason to believe the poor drunk didn't know they were even there. The cops immediately, with no verbal challenge (always stressed in good firearms training), blasted him with two loads of 00 from a shotgun and several rounds from the other cop's pistol.

    As far as I am concerned, these yellow-bellied, cowardly killers should be brought before the bar of justice to answer for their criminal homicide!

    *I might add, I don't know too much about most areas of human knowledge, but one thing I do know a thing or two about is handguns, and that hose nozzle (with a big brass tip and a brass band around the middle) looked like no handgun known to man.
     


  8. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    ^ 33 shots fired? How many guys?

    I think that there is a tendency on the part of some cops to discharge their firearm against any and all dogs for no other reason than they get to fire their gun. At best they'll get a minor suspension, though occasionally one gets fired. I remember a guy who killed a Miniature Dachshund who was "threatening" him.

    Cops need dog awareness training. An eight-month-old puppy while adult size is not a threat even when it is threatening. A hard stomp will send a puppy running.

    lefty
     


  9. BP348

    BP348 Senior member

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    This is just flat wrong on so many levels. He could have used pepper spray. He could have used his night stick. He could have used COMMON SENSE. Even if the dog had been a danger it's still just one dog while he is a fully grown man with several weapons at his disposal. God forbid that he might actually have to face any small amount of danger, I mean he's only a cop. And even if he felt he had to shoot it, 33 shots? He put the whole neighborhood in mortal danger. Who was he protecting? Himself? He's paid to be put into harms way. If he has to get rough with a dog and risk a bite, so be it, that's his job. Spraying 33 shots all over hells half acre did far more damage and was far more risky than any dog could ever be.
    No what you're saying is flat wrong. Where does it say anywhere in the police officer's job description that he must first be injured before resorting to lethal force? Pepper spray? Doesn't always work. Mace is much better on animals but police officers don't carry mace. Night stick? Most officers carry a collapsible baton, much shorter then a night stick and again it doesn't always work. I believe the dog in the story was reported to be a pit bull, if you thought a pit bull was going to try and bite you would you hit it with a little stick? or would you shoot it? The Police Officer risked taking a bite when he showed up, that doesn't mean he has to wait for the dog to bite him before he can do something. What if the cop is bitten and injured? Perhaps a career ending injury? That's OK it's all part of the job? Or do you do everything you can to minimize the risks you take?
     


  10. BP348

    BP348 Senior member

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    In point of fact, I know a helluva lot about the deployment of the combat firearm. I have third (top) level certification from Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, and Front Sight. I am a grad of Mas Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute. I trained with Jim Cirillo and a number of other notable trainers. It sounds pretty apparent from your snotty comments you have no idea who I am. A lot of people here do!

    You're right I have no idea who you are. As far as I know you could be some kid in a basement and found all of the above in a 10 minute google search.

    But I did a 10 minute google search and found out you're Jan Libourel former editor of Handgun magazine. With your resume I find your opinion shocking. With your background you have to know a lot of LEO's and what the attitude is on Monday morning Quarterbacking an officer involved shooting.

    You say they had 10 minutes to observe Mr. Zerby, at any time did they completely rule out that he didn't have a gun? If so how? You're correct not all police officers are experts at identifying different types of Firearms. Is it possible that they really weren't sure as to what he was holding? Or that they thought he had the gun in a pocket? Or any number of different things?

    With all your firearms expertise you really want me to believe that you don't know that if a police officer is faced with a deadly force situation that the police officer doesn't have to give verbal commands, they can escalate all the way to deadly force without saying a word? Point a gun at a cop and do you think he's going to tell you to drop it or is he just going to shoot you? With all your training what would you do?

    Obviously there was a review in to the shooting, there is an investigation into every police officer shooting, and for what ever reason the officer(s) was found to be justified in shooting Doug Zerby. Do you think the investigation might have uncovered information that the general public doesn't know about? Unless you were there then you don't know exactly what happened and even with all your training all you can do is speculate as to what happened. Did anyone other then the PD investigators ever speak with the officers and get their side of the story? Since they're back on the street and face no disciplinary action who do you think is incorrect in their belief as to what really happened?

    I have a feeling we're not going to agree on this topic.
     


  11. Bhowie

    Bhowie Senior member

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    You're right I have no idea who you are. As far as I know you could be some kid in a basement and found all of the above in a 10 minute google search.

    But I did a 10 minute google search and found out you're Jan Libourel former editor of Handgun magazine. With your resume I find your opinion shocking. With your background you have to know a lot of LEO's and what the attitude is on Monday morning Quarterbacking an officer involved shooting.

    You say they had 10 minutes to observe Mr. Zerby, at any time did they completely rule out that he didn't have a gun? If so how? You're correct not all police officers are experts at identifying different types of Firearms. Is it possible that they really weren't sure as to what he was holding? Or that they thought he had the gun in a pocket? Or any number of different things?

    With all your firearms expertise you really want me to believe that you don't know that if a police officer is faced with a deadly force situation that the police officer doesn't have to give verbal commands, they can escalate all the way to deadly force without saying a word? Point a gun at a cop and do you think he's going to tell you to drop it or is he just going to shoot you? With all your training what would you do?

    Obviously there was a review in to the shooting, there is an investigation into every police officer shooting, and for what ever reason the officer(s) was found to be justified in shooting Doug Zerby. Do you think the investigation might have uncovered information that the general public doesn't know about? Unless you were there then you don't know exactly what happened and even with all your training all you can do is speculate as to what happened. Did anyone other then the PD investigators ever speak with the officers and get their side of the story? Since they're back on the street and face no disciplinary action who do you think is incorrect in their belief as to what really happened?

    I have a feeling we're not going to agree on this topic.


    lol, this will be good
     


  12. CDFS

    CDFS Senior member

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    You're leaving out several important facts. You have as guy who's holding a hose nozzle, was he facing away from the cop when he walked up on him? Was the cop able to see what was in this guys hand prior to him turning and pointing it at the cop? Verbal warning to show the cop his hands?

    I'm going to have to disagree, if I was a cop and I walked up on someone who turned and pointed a metallic object at me that I have to identify in the span of a second or two and the result could be me dieing and never seeing my family again, I'm going to do what the cop did and shoot first and ask questions later.

    Was the shooting ruled unjustified? If not how was the Police Officer cowardly or incompetent?

    Your Monday morning Quarterbacking is fine for a web forum but remember you have minutes, hours, or days to come up with your conclusion, the cop had less then 2 seconds, Remember to the cop it was reported by the neighbor to be a small pistol. Who's incompetent there the neighbor or the cop?

    I think you need to take a walk in those shoes before you talk some more shit about something you know nothing about.

    I don't agree with the cops love to kill dogs comment either.


    I'm too lazy to type a dissertation on this, but there is a German word Garantenstellung that's applicable here.
     


  13. dcg

    dcg Senior member

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    ^ 33 shots fired? How many guys?

    I think that there is a tendency on the part of some cops to discharge their firearm against any and all dogs for no other reason than they get to fire their gun. At best they'll get a minor suspension, though occasionally one gets fired. I remember a guy who killed a Miniature Dachshund who was "threatening" him.

    Cops need dog awareness training. An eight-month-old puppy while adult size is not a threat even when it is threatening. A hard stomp will send a puppy running.

    lefty


    From what I have read, it appears a single officer did all the shooting.
     


  14. dcg

    dcg Senior member

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    No what you're saying is flat wrong. Where does it say anywhere in the police officer's job description that he must first be injured before resorting to lethal force? Pepper spray? Doesn't always work. Mace is much better on animals but police officers don't carry mace. Night stick? Most officers carry a collapsible baton, much shorter then a night stick and again it doesn't always work. I believe the dog in the story was reported to be a pit bull, if you thought a pit bull was going to try and bite you would you hit it with a little stick? or would you shoot it?

    The Police Officer risked taking a bite when he showed up, that doesn't mean he has to wait for the dog to bite him before he can do something. What if the cop is bitten and injured? Perhaps a career ending injury? That's OK it's all part of the job? Or do you do everything you can to minimize the risks you take?


    With regard to this particular situation - spraying 33 bullets all over a neighborhood does not scream "risk minimization" to me.

    Regarding the general phenomenon of police officers shooting dogs - given that the issue appears to be a common one, maybe they should start carrying mace. Or get more training on how to handle dogs. Or both.

    Failing that, this officer could have kicked the dog, or he could have gotten in his patrol car and called animal control.
     


  15. dcg

    dcg Senior member

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    Sometimes, I just fucking hate people. Patrick: [​IMG] http://www.ahscares.org/showarchive.asp?id=772 lefty
    This guy is looking much better nowadays:
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