lefty's random dog thread.

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by lefty, Mar 22, 2009.

  1. NorCal

    NorCal Senior member

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    You do know demonic possession is never a good sign?
    You have him exorcized although some would say that takes away from his true demon dog nature.

    uploading some now, here's a crappy one for now

    [​IMG]
     
  2. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    I think the majority of dog owners keep dogs as companions/pets now, and not because they have strong herding instincts or their ability to retrieve game. The best thing to be is properly define what one is looking for in an animal and narrow one's choices from there. If I was looking for a good cattle dog, I might choose an Australian Shepherd or Border Collie. If I was looking for a good hunting dog, I might choose a German Short Haired Pointer. If I was looking for a pet, either of these dogs could work for me, and I would spend time with each breed to narrow my decision. In my case, I grew up around Rotties, so was already very familiar with their desirable qualities when it came time to choose my own first dog which was, you guessed it, a Rottie. I did not herd cattle with him, nor did I use him to protect me from brigands who might beset upon me as I travelled from town to town, selling prime rib and flank steaks.

    Breeding and promoting a pet personality does nothing more than make breeds weaker and weaker and ultimately turns them into eloi.
    *Note to self - create an weak, ineffectual, "happy" dog and market it as an Eloi - The Family Dog from the Future.*

    Other than familiarity, what is it you want in a Rottweiler? Do you expect him to protect your family?


    Aggression with otehr dogs IS a fault to me, as I don't want to be sued or worse, have my dog mistake a child with an overly aggressive petting manner as a threat and maul him. I am entirely convinced by the evidence that neutering reduces aggressive tendencies in male dogs, so I view it as incumbent on me, who makes a personal choice to own a large, powerful dog in an urban setting, to reduce the likelihood he will injure another human being or dog. All of my Rotties have been aloof, reserved, and calm, but I give my business to breeders who focus on maintaining a flawless appearance, but breed towards pet quality dogs who will not be overly aggressive. As a dog owner, and a responsible member of society I view unjustified aggression towards anything, whether it is the mailman or another dog, as a major fault, and in my case, a disqualifying fault. You may not, which is fine, but please let me know if you ever decide to relocate to the South so I can be sure my kids don't play near your backyard.. [​IMG]


    Absolutely not at all. [​IMG]


    Canine aggression is not the same as human aggression and the notion that they are is simply silly. That note about canine aggression in the Rott came from the standard and it is not to be penalized while judging. If it is a fault to you perhaps anther breed is in order?

    I could put together quite a bit of "evidence" from trainers and animal behaviorists that castration does not necessarily reduce aggression and can in fact, lead to an increase in inappropriate aggression. You see the issue isn't "unjustified" aggression as you call it, but aggression as a whole - you're trying to extinguish or curb it, whereas I'm saying you should learn how to control it.

    This saddens me:

    You're promoting the show breeding of dogs and the destruction of traits that make a Rottweiler a Rottweiler. You're helping destroy a breed that you profess to love. The average idiot knows no better, but you're an experienced guy.

    I don't know how you can look at that AVMA report and come to any other conclusion that the health risks of neutering far surpass the benefits. That the temperament changes are pretty much a crap shoot.

    I'm paraphrasing but ... "periodically you have to examine what you believe to be true and throw out that which offends you." I do this every day with regards to dogs. You have a year or so to do more research and decide if now is the time rethink what you believe about dogs/castration/aggression.

    lefty
     
  3. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    Breeding and promoting a pet personality does nothing more than make breeds weaker and weaker and ultimately turns them into eloi.
    *Note to self - create an weak, ineffectual, "happy" dog and market it as an Eloi - The Family Dog from the Future.*

    Other than familiarity, what is it you want in a Rottweiler? Do you expect him to protect your family?




    Canine aggression is not the same as human aggression and the notion that they are is simply silly. That note about canine aggression in the Rott came from the standard and it is not to be penalized while judging. If it is a fault to you perhaps anther breed is in order?

    I could put together quite a bit of "evidence" from trainers and animal behaviorists that castration does not necessarily reduce aggression and can in fact, lead to an increase in inappropriate aggression. You see the issue isn't "unjustified" aggression as you call it, but aggression as a whole - you're trying to extinguish or curb it, whereas I'm saying you should learn how to control it.

    This saddens me:



    You're promoting the show breeding of dogs and the destruction of traits that make a Rottweiler a Rottweiler. You're helping destroy a breed that you profess to love. The average idiot knows no better, but you're an experienced guy.

    I don't know how you can look at that AVMA report and come to any other conclusion that the health risks of neutering far surpass the benefits. That the temperament changes are pretty much a crap shoot.

    I'm paraphrasing but ... "periodically you have to examine what you believe to be true and throw out that which offends you." I do this every day with regards to dogs. You have a year or so to do more research and decide if now is the time rethink what you believe about dogs/castration/aggression.

    lefty


    Well said, lefty. I now owned five fighting dogs (Tosas). While they varied in their degree of dog aggression, they were always, without fail, wonderful and totally reliable with children, despite a good deal of teasing from my damn stepson.

    I think I have mentioned this story before, but I'll repeat it here. Probably my "hottest" Tosa was my first male, Zuma, who was imported directly from the Japanese fighting association for me. When he was nine months old, he hammered Rocky, a big, tough mix who was hitherto "king dog" of the neighborhood. As soon as Rocky's mistress and I broke up the fight, I was walking Zuma up the street. Two little girls ran out, saying, "Oh, there's Zuma!" and fussing over him. The big dog, still hot from battle, was totally affable and complacent with them. That is the true fighting dog temperament.

    I ran into one of the little girls the other day. The cute little blonde is now a Hooters Girl. A young man whom I presume to be her beau was with her. He was a swarthy, thuggish-looking character, I regret to say.
     
  4. dcg

    dcg Senior member

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    I ran into one of the little girls the other day. The cute little blonde is now a Hooters Girl. A young man whom I presume to be her beau was with her. He was a swarthy, thuggish-looking character, I regret to say.

    [​IMG] I recall reading the story before, but this is a worthwhile addendum. A classic Jan post (which I say as a compliment)!
     
  5. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Well said, lefty ...
    I didn't mean to pick on gnatty who is a decent enough fellow. And on the surface it seems like he's doing everything right: thoughtful search for a breeder, "responsible" ownership with regards to reproduction; all that the books tell you to do. But I would argue that his breeder and their dogs contribute nothing to the betterment of the breed and are a factor (however minute) in the breed's demise. Okay, this next part is long. It's a review of McCaig's book, The Dog Wars: How the Border Collie Battled the American Kennel Club and it lays out a compelling argument as to why show dog breeding is the detriment of the dogs we love.
    lefty
     
  6. gnatty8

    gnatty8 Senior member

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    Breeding and promoting a pet personality does nothing more than make breeds weaker and weaker and ultimately turns them into eloi.
    *Note to self - create an weak, ineffectual, "happy" dog and market it as an Eloi - The Family Dog from the Future.*


    Wait, isn't this essentially what dog breeders have been doing for centuries, ever since those first wolves starting hanging around campfires looking for handouts?

    No, I don't expect a dog to protect my family. A pump action shotgun and a very visible alarm system would be a cheaper and more effective deterrent and option.

    I expect a pet to hang out with me when my wife is pissed off at me. To accompany me on a walk when I don't feel like going alone.

    To do funny things that give me belly laughs.

    In short, to be a domestic companion.

    I just don't know how to respond to this. You are implying that unless a person intends to judge their pets each day based on breed standards, they should not bother with a dog at all. WTF?

    [/quote]

    And I can show you evidence to the contrary. Whose evidence is stronger? That's for each individual to judge, and I've made my choice. You won't convince me otherwise.. [​IMG]

    In the end, don't take yourself so seriously, you are arguing with me as if I am ignoring your posts. I am not, I just don't agree with them. [​IMG]
     
  7. gnatty8

    gnatty8 Senior member

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    I think I have mentioned this story before, but I'll repeat it here. Probably my "hottest" Tosa was my first male, Zuma, who was imported directly from the Japanese fighting association for me. When he was nine months old, he hammered Rocky, a big, tough mix who was hitherto "king dog" of the neighborhood. As soon as Rocky's mistress and I broke up the fight, I was walking Zuma up the street. Two little girls ran out, saying, "Oh, there's Zuma!" and fussing over him. The big dog, still hot from battle, was totally affable and complacent with them. That is the true fighting dog temperament.


    Are you trying to argue that this is acceptable behavior of a domestic animal, to attack and maul other animals?

    If so, the root of the disagreement here is we have a different perspective on what is acceptable behavior from a domesticated animal that exists in a civil society. Shit, I don't even think Michael Vick thinks this is acceptable in an animal anymore, at least not publicly.. [​IMG]
     
  8. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Wait, isn't this essentially what dog breeders have been doing for centuries, ever since those first wolves starting hanging around campfires looking for handouts?

    We've have improved upon the wolf by creating an animal more suitable for our specific needs. We are now pissing all that work away and dumbing once great breeds down to a puppy mentality. That's what your breeder is breeding for - a dog that looks like a Rottweiler but in truth, isn't a Rottweiler. Contrary to what its AKC papers may say.

    No, I don't expect a dog to protect my family. A pump action shotgun and a very visible alarm system would be a cheaper and more effective deterrent and option.

    A dog is a visible alarm system and an effective deterrent and unlike a gun cannot be used against you. Burglars will pass by a house with a barking dog.

    I expect a pet to hang out with me when my wife is pissed off at me. To accompany me on a walk when I don't feel like going alone.

    To do funny things that give me belly laughs.

    In short, to be a domestic companion.


    What if you could have all that and an effective protector of your family and home.

    I just don't know how to respond to this. You are implying that unless a person intends to judge their pets each day based on breed standards, they should not bother with a dog at all. WTF?


    I don't think you understand what a breed standard is as it relates to temperament. Your animal is supposed to be x + y + z. You're pulling out z because it doesn't fit your needs or your layman's opinion of what the breed should be. I'm saying that if you pull out z you no longer have the breed. If your Rott is aggressive to other dogs, control it or don't bring to the park. Don't "punish" the breed because you believe that a proper temperament is inappropriate in modern society. Get another breed.

    And I can show you evidence to the contrary. Whose evidence is stronger? That's for each individual to judge, and I've made my choice. You won't convince me otherwise.. [​IMG]

    In the end, don't take yourself so seriously, you are arguing with me as if I am ignoring your posts. I am not, I just don't agree with them. [​IMG]


    I don't take my myself that seriously, but I don't use those little smilie things so maybe it hard to to tell. And we're not arguing.

    I hardly expect to change your mind and it would be ridiculous of you to do so after a few posts. I think it would be great if you could look at your preconceived notions and reexamine them. I find it kind of nutty that after the AVMA says that castration could have serious health effects on your companion and the risks outweigh any benefit you would still castrate that little puppy to make him (and yourself) more acceptable at the dog park.

    Are you trying to argue that this is acceptable behavior of a domestic animal, to attack and maul other animals?

    If so, the root of the disagreement here is we have a different perspective on what is acceptable behavior from a domesticated animal that exists in a civil society. Shit, I don't even think Michael Vick thinks this is acceptable in an animal anymore, at least not publicly.. [​IMG]


    It is acceptable and proper behavior in a fighting dog that has been bred to exhibit canine aggression. The point was that canine aggression does not mean human aggression.

    Notice that Jan did not use the word "maul". You did.

    lefty
     
  9. JLibourel

    JLibourel Senior member

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    Are you trying to argue that this is acceptable behavior of a domestic animal, to attack and maul other animals? If so, the root of the disagreement here is we have a different perspective on what is acceptable behavior from a domesticated animal that exists in a civil society. Shit, I don't even think Michael Vick thinks this is acceptable in an animal anymore, at least not publicly.. [​IMG]
    Let me elucidate the story of Zuma and Rocky a bit more. The dust-up occurred while I was talking to Rocky's owner, a very, very nice lady who lives across the street from us. She was always very scofflaw about letting Rocky run off-leash. He had been in a number of fights with neighborhood dogs. Anyway, I was standing with Zuma at my side chatting with her while Rocky was nosing around in the park off-leash. Then Rocky came up with a tennis ball in his mouth, dropped it in front of Zuma, stared at Zuma and growled. In flash, Zuma (still barely more than a baby) had him down and was on him. Fortunately, I was able to get him off without too much difficulty or appreciable damage to Rocky. That's what I like about a good fighting dog. It has a warrior's creed that a challenge must be met and responded to appropriately. I don't want a psycho dog that wants to attack everything in sight any more than anyone else does. My males have normally been very amorous and playful toward bitches, maintained a lordly and benign indifferences toward little dogs, but if another male challenges them, they are good to go. And believe me, there are plenty of dogs from non-fighting breeds that are spoiling for trouble, not least of them Rottweilers. I know of one Rottweiler who came on a property where there was a kenneled Tosa (the brother of my dog Dempsey) and began fence fighting him. The Tosa smashed through some heavy gauge wire and crushed the Rott's skull. To make amends, the Tosa's owner gave the Rott's owner a Tosa puppy out of his next litter and everybody was happy. I couldn't agree more with what lefty and McCaig have to say about dog showing and show breeding. Some of you may recall that during the almost two years I was without a Tosa, I was considering a Staffie Bull. I went to several shows, and I didn't like what I saw, by and large. The breeders are trying to send a basically good breed down the same ruinous road the English Bulldog travelled 140 years ago. I saw squatty little dogs with splayed legs and proportionately enormous, pollywog-like heads prancing inanely around a show ring in front of old biddy judges who were "assessing movement"...I suppose determine which would be the best fighting dog if only we let them fight. I thought, "This is perversion. I'd much, much rather see them fighting each other. At least that way we'd soon know which were the best dogs." However much one may decry the sport of dogfighting, it gave the world some wonderful dogs. Some friends of my stepson brought a Pit Bull over the other night. What a charming, playful, delightful bitch! My Tosa Cyrus spent most of the time chasing after her trying to make love to her--in vain, since her reproductive organs had recently been ripped out of her body. Amazing how we call such mutilation "fixing," isn't it?
     
  10. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Not sure I posted this before but this working terrier site is loaded with info about earth dogs.

    lefty
     
  11. NorCal

    NorCal Senior member

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    Any idea if the "Asta" mentioned below was the inspiration for the Asta of the Thin Man novels by Dashiell Hammett? From:http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com...-terriers.html In 1938 a German by the name of Max Thiel, Sr. bought his first Jagdterrier. Thiel hunted with this dog for only a few years before the start of World War II. During the war Thiel lost his dogs, but after the war he settled in Bavaria and purchased two female dogs, Asta and Naja. In 1951 Thiel came to the U.S, bringing with him Naja. He soon sent for Asta, who was bred and shipped pregnant. In 1954, Armin Schwarz Sr., imported a "champion" sire named Axel, and a few more litters were promulgated. In March 1956, nine Jadgt terrier owners met in St. Louis, Missouri, and formed the Jagdterrier Club of America, with the expressed goal of getting the dog recognized by the American Kennel Club. In fact, the club did not prosper and eventually died out.
     
  12. jobro

    jobro Senior member

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    Here is my delightful pooch. [​IMG]
     
  13. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    The Thinman movies came out in the early '30s so the timelines don't jibe. And at any rate, Asta was a WH Fox Terrier. He was partially trained by the Weatherwax boys who also trained "Lassie".

    Jagds are very cool dogs but hell to live with - you should get one.

    lefty
     
  14. gnatty8

    gnatty8 Senior member

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    We've have improved upon the wolf by creating an animal more suitable for our specific needs. We are now pissing all that work away and dumbing once great breeds down to a puppy mentality. That's what your breeder is breeding for - a dog that looks like a Rottweiler but in truth, isn't a Rottweiler. Contrary to what its AKC papers may say.



    A dog is a visible alarm system and an effective deterrent and unlike a gun cannot be used against you. Burglars will pass by a house with a barking dog.



    What if you could have all that and an effective protector of your family and home.



    I don't think you understand what a breed standard is as it relates to temperament. Your animal is supposed to be x + y + z. You're pulling out z because it doesn't fit your needs or your layman's opinion of what the breed should be. I'm saying that if you pull out z you no longer have the breed. If your Rott is aggressive to other dogs, control it or don't bring to the park. Don't "punish" the breed because you believe that a proper temperament is inappropriate in modern society. Get another breed.



    I don't take my myself that seriously, but I don't use those little smilie things so maybe it hard to to tell. And we're not arguing.

    I hardly expect to change your mind and it would be ridiculous of you to do so after a few posts. I think it would be great if you could look at your preconceived notions and reexamine them. I find it kind of nutty that after the AVMA says that castration could have serious health effects on your companion and the risks outweigh any benefit you would still castrate that little puppy to make him (and yourself) more acceptable at the dog park.



    It is acceptable and proper behavior in a fighting dog that has been bred to exhibit canine aggression. The point was that canine aggression does not mean human aggression.

    Notice that Jan did not use the word "maul". You did.

    lefty


    You are obnoxious, welcome to my ignore list. Only the second in close to 5 years, you should be proud. You remind me of a brainwashed cultist who repeats their mantras over and over and over, oblivious to the fact that they are having not winning converts.
     
  15. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Sorry you feel that way. It's just a conversation about dogs - a subject that I can be a little earnest about at times. You dogs and your breeder will have no effect on the Rott population and you should both be free to pursue whatever direction you feel is right for the breed.

    Good luck with your dogs.

    [​IMG]

    lefty
     

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