Leather Quality and Properties

[DWFII]

If you want springiness, you'll get more out of a crepe outsole or any rubber outsole.

Whatever cork brings to the process is outweighed by...what it brings to the process. And only on high quality shoes. On most commercial shoes, it doesn't make any difference what you use as forepart filler--realistically, expectations are not (cannot be) that high.

As far as molding to your foot you can't have it both ways --it can't be springy and mold to your foot, too. The only way it molds to your foot is to migrate out from under pressure points on a thin leather or leatherboard insole.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

If you want springiness, you'll get more out of a crepe outsole or any rubber outsole.

Whatever cork brings to the process is outweighed by...what it brings to the process. And only on high quality shoes. On most commercial shoes, it doesn't make any difference what you use as forepart filler--realistically, expectations are not (cannot be) that high.

As far as molding to your foot you can't have it both ways --it can't be springy and mold to your foot, too. The only way it molds to your foot is to migrate out from under pressure points on a thin leather or leatherboard insole.

How about it's pricing? I would guess that cork is a cheaper product so consequently more available? How difficult would the felt be to work with in comparison to cork?

 

[DWFII]

Actually there is a scarcity of good cork, but that said, most cork filling is granulated and presumably of indeterminate and irrelevant quality.

Cork may seem easier to work on the face of it---just needs a rough shoemaker's rasp but felt just needs a sharp knife...something, admittedly, not all shoemakers have (although the skilled ones usually do).

As mentioned numerous times, cork is usually mounted with a petro-chemical solvent based, neoprene cement known as 'All Purpose'. It's detrimental to the health of planet and the shoemaker. And it's occlusive--sealing off the insole so that it cannot 'breathe'--cannot transport moisture from perspiration from the interior of the shoe. The only way to make these considerations go away is to ignore them.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Actually there is a scarcity of good cork, but that said, most cork filling is granulated and presumably of indeterminate and irrelevant quality.

Cork may seem easier to work on th eface of it---just needs a rough shoemaker's rasp but felt just needs a sharp knife...something, admittedly, not all shoemakers have (although the skilled ones usually do).

As mentioned numerous times, cork is usually mounted with a petro-chemical solvent based, neoprene cement known as 'All Purpose'. It's detrimental to the health of planet and the shoemaker. And it's occlusive--sealing off the insole so that it cannot 'breathe'--cannot transport moisture from perspiration from the interior of the shoe. The only way to make these considerations go away is to ignore them.

All that said, felt seems a better material for the shoemaker, wearer, and the planet. Why not make more use of it? Is it cost prohibitive? It appears to be a material employed predominantly by English Bespoke makers. It is a material not readily available or accessible to any and all makers outside of England? Or is it perhaps not something demanded by the consumer, therefore not enough incentive for the makers to incorporate it?

 

[j ingevaldsson]

^^^ For factory made shoes, cork mass is the only thing used basically, and it's not ideal since it's so "fugitive", as it's usually expressed.

Cork plates which is the main thing used for bespoke shoes, is not as fugitive, and therefore better on that regard. From what I understand, outside of UK, it's generally more difficult to get a hold of good felt. Price difference I'm not sure of TBH, but could be the case as well. Looking at properties for the wearer, I can't honestly say that I experience any big difference between shoes with cork plates or felt, but when I can, I usually opt for felt instead of cork.

As an example, my first pair from Main d'Or/Eiji Murata had cork plate filling:

Second (and third coming soon) have felt, since he got a bunch of tar felt from Daniel Wegan (which I'm one of few he use it for):

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

^^^ For factory made shoes, cork mass is the only thing used basically, and it's not ideal since it's so "fugitive", as it's usually expressed.

Cork plates which is the main thing used for bespoke shoes, is not as fugitive, and therefore better on that regard. From what I understand, outside of UK, it's generally more difficult to get a hold of good felt. Price difference I'm not sure of TBH, but could be the case as well. Looking at properties for the wearer, I can't honestly say that I experience any big difference between shoes with cork plates or felt, but when I can, I usually opt for felt instead of cork.

As an example, my first pair from Main d'Or/Eiji Murata had cork plate filling:

Second (and third coming soon) have felt, since he got a bunch of tar felt from Daniel Wegan (which I'm one of few he use it for):

I agree. Usually cork plates are what is used for many if not all Bespoke makers outside of the UK (Italians swear by it for some reason). I have inquired with a few about the felt material. Pretty much all said that there shouldn't be a big difference in how the shoes felt or reacted. This could have been a diversionary tactic, as there could have been an aversion to working with the felt material ?

I ended up paying a minimal upcharge for the felt ($20-$30 IIRC). Like yourself and as mentioned by the makers, I didn't feel any difference ??‍♂️.
Perhaps the difference becomes more apparent after much more continuous use?

As DWF mentioned, it may not be immediately visible or apparent, especially considering how detrimental it is to the planet and/or potentially lead to a chronic medical condition to the maker.

 

[DWFII]

Well, 'cork plate' is a new one on me but that looks, for all the world, like granulated cork to me. I've seen sheets of cork, and used solid cork to make handles of fly rods but what I've seen is distinctive, and doesn't really look like that.

As for felt outside of the UK, I get 3/32" pure, 100% wool felt from an outfit here in the US. It is readily available and not terribly expensive. I can't remember what I paid for a roll (4' x 25' ?) but it has lasted me for more than five years...maybe coming up on ten.

I also bought five feet of Irish Flax Felt here in the US and it is just what I remember from some deconstructed West End shoes from the early 20th century. I had wanted to source and try some for many years. I find it to be interesting and a step up from cork but still like my untreated wool felt better.

As an aside I did some experimenting with the Irish Flax Felt because a colleague wondered about the bitumen that the flax felt was coated with...whether it was occlusive and worried about the bitumen being a petroleum product, as well.

The Irish flax Felt passes water readily, as is illustrated in the photo below.

As for the the bitumen, it is (or can be) a completely natural product...not a by-product of petroleum distillation...and has been used time out of mind by all manner of trades, shoemaking among them. Beyond that, while I am sure that the bitumen is occlusive in and of itself, it is not sealing the fleshside of the insole so not occlusive to the shoe. It is however coating the flax fibers so that they don't rot.

Again, I still like the wool felt better.

The photo is of a piece of Irish Flax Felt loosely folded into a canoe shape (with the ends sealed) with no crease in the felt itself except at the ends. Just add water---drip, drip drip.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Well, 'cork plate' is a new one on me but that looks, for all the world, like granulated cork to me. I've seen sheets of cork, and used solid cork to make handles of fly rods but what I've seen is distinctive.

As for felt outside of the UK, I get 3/32" pure, 100% wool felt from an outfit here in the US. It is readily available and not terribly expensive. I can't remember what I paid for roll (4' x 25' ?) but it has lasted me for more than five years...maybe coming up on ten.

I also bought five feet of irish Flax Felt here in the US and it is just what I remember from some deconstructed West End shoes from the early 20th century. I had wanted to source and try some for many years. I find it to be interesting and a step up from cork but still like my untreated wool felt better.

As an aside I did some experimenting with the Irish Flax Felt because a colleague wondered about the bitumen that the flax felt was coated with...whether it was occlusive and worried about the bitumen being a petroleum product, as well.

The Irish flax Felt passes water readily, as is illustrated in the photo below.

As for the the bitumen, it is (or can be) a completely natural product...not a by-product of petroleum distillation...and has been used time out of mind by all manner of trades, shoemaking among them. Beyond that, while I am sure that the bitumen is occlusive in and of itself, it is not sealing the fleshside of the insole so not occlusive to the shoe. It is however coating the flax fibers so that they don't rot.

Again, I still like the wool felt better.

The photo is of a piece of Irish Flax Felt loosely folded into a canoe shape (with the ends sealed) with no crease in the felt itself except at the ends. Just add water---drip, drip drip.


View attachment 1401426

Darn amazing how porous that seems to be ??.

Well based on DWF's comments, seems inexpensive, long lasting, and accesible. Is the difficulty in using it that discouraging or time consuming?

 

[DWFII]

Darn amazing how porous that seems to be ??.

Well based on DWF's comments, seems inexpensive, long lasting, and accesible. Is the difficulty in using it that discouraging or time consuming?

The Irish Flax Felt is undoubtedly more expensive than the wool felt. And It is probably harder to use than cork or the wool. But hey, it's not calculus. A sharp knife can easily trim it.

Having said that...and FWIW...I have always maintained that the most important skill that a shoemaker has or learns is to sharpen a knife. Given the number of exacto knives (Stanley knives, Tandy skiving tools, etc.) I see on IG, I suspect it is a skill that eludes many.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

The Irish Flax Felt is undoubtedly more expensive than the wool felt. And It is probably harder to use than cork or the wool. But hey, it's not calculus. A sharp knife can easily trim it.

Having said that...and FWIW...I have always maintained that the most important skill that a shoemaker has or learns is to sharpen a knife. Given the number of exacto knives (Stanley knives, Tandy skiving tools, etc.) I see on IG, I suspect it is a skill that eludes many.


View attachment 1401439

I have seen on the internet a bevy of knives in a shoemakers shop. Definitely not the people you want to tick off. Heaven help us if the shoemakers become adept at knife throwing.

 

[DWFII]

I have and use a number of Tina knives, Bergs, two custom made (for me) high-speed-steel knives, several Japanese leatherworking knives, and three old stock I-can't-remember-the-brand-but-they-no-longer-make-them vintage, American made skiving knives. As well as an assortment of clicking knives, hacking knives and sundry other variations which I use exclusively (no quick-change razor blade knives).

They are beautiful, they are unusual and every shoemaker has them...not everyone uses them, however. So no worries.

?

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Isn't most "cork" used on commercial shoes a slurry of sawdust and glue?

 

[DWFII]

Isn't most "cork" used on commercial shoes a slurry of sawdust and glue?

I've never seen that. All that I have seen is a "slurry" of granulated cork and cement.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Yeah, that's basically what I mean.

 

[DWFII]

I see...well, you're right. But sawdust is different than cork even if they're both from a tree. Cork is moisture impermeable all by itself, whereas sawdust would be the opposite.

That said, both are in a matrix of neoprene cement (or something very like it) and the cement makes both inherently impermeable. When cemented to the bottom of the insole both are occlusive...extremely so.