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bjhofkin

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Thing is if wood supposedly absorbs all the moisture as per the marketing, and somehow you’re left with wet wood and dry leather, then how does the wood dry? Certainly wouldn’t move the long way through all that wood to the other side to evaporate

I see it more likely that the two materials find an equilibrium of “wetness” where some moisture is drawn from the leather, then the two dry concurrently when the moisture drawn from the surface of the leather into the air then draws moisture from the wood in capillary action
 

ntempleman

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So reading from the above, shoe trees slow down the drying of shoes, and push back along the treadline of the shoes.
From that, what’s the point of lasted shoes trees other than they look cool, a well fitting shoe don’t have stresses on the toe boxes or the heels.
Leather shrinks as it dries. When you put it on again, your feet will stretch the leather again. This cycle isn’t ideal for the life of the material. A shoe tree that is made to fit the shoe will maintain the shape of the leather as it dries, so it doesn’t shrink. I personally would never use or advise using some random tree that sort of fits, as it will only support some random parts of the shoe. Worse, if they’re jammed in or have a spring, they can stretch the shoe out of shape. If we’re talking about a bespoke shoe, what’s the point aiming for the best fit possible then jamming some random stretching device in there? Might as well hang your bespoke suit on a wire coat hanger while you’re at it. Luckily most places in the west end provide a pair of trees with all shoes so just pop them in after wearing and fuhgettaboutit
 

j ingevaldsson

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Leather shrinks as it dries. When you put it on again, your feet will stretch the leather again. This cycle isn’t ideal for the life of the material. A shoe tree that is made to fit the shoe will maintain the shape of the leather as it dries, so it doesn’t shrink. I personally would never use or advise using some random tree that sort of fits, as it will only support some random parts of the shoe. Worse, if they’re jammed in or have a spring, they can stretch the shoe out of shape. If we’re talking about a bespoke shoe, what’s the point aiming for the best fit possible then jamming some random stretching device in there? Might as well hang your bespoke suit on a wire coat hanger while you’re at it. Luckily most places in the west end provide a pair of trees with all shoes so just pop them in after wearing and fuhgettaboutit

I’d say, if you have the possibility for a lasted shoe tree, like in the case with bespoke and many high end RTW, always go with that, due to the reasons you mention above.
If you don’t have access to it, opt for the best fitting shoe trees you can find, and if you need to choose preferably slightly small then large. The most important part for the shoe tree is to flatten the sole (since with that the vamp creases will be flattened to some extent automatically, so to speak), so you want it to at least do that properly.
 

Encore

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Hi all,
I understand that aniline leather comes colored and finished right from the tannery with a topcoat on it. So it’s be very difficult to do color variation on the leather right? If it’s in black color, is there any chance of doing any kind of patina?
 

DWFII

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Leather shrinks as it dries. When you put it on again, your feet will stretch the leather again. This cycle isn’t ideal for the life of the material. A shoe tree that is made to fit the shoe will maintain the shape of the leather as it dries, so it doesn’t shrink. I personally would never use or advise using some random tree that sort of fits, as it will only support some random parts of the shoe. Worse, if they’re jammed in or have a spring, they can stretch the shoe out of shape. If we’re talking about a bespoke shoe, what’s the point aiming for the best fit possible then jamming some random stretching device in there? Might as well hang your bespoke suit on a wire coat hanger while you’re at it. Luckily most places in the west end provide a pair of trees with all shoes so just pop them in after wearing and fuhgettaboutit

I don't disagree with a thing you have said...and I have Allison Kirby shaped hangers for my suit.

But there is another consideration: Feet are not lasts nor lasted shoe trees. We use lasts to create a pleasing shape that embodies the general shape and measurements of a customer's foot. When a shoe is worn the heat and moisture from the foot makes the leather conform to the idiosyncrasies of that particular foot--the plantar topography, slight bunioning that may or not be addressed by the last maker, etc... What's more, the foot itself changes shape as it walks...pushing leather over the welt, for instance, and more or less rearranging the shoe leather to accommodate itself--the foot. As an example--the facings and instep of a shoe made on a straight-cone last will shift medially. And even a shoe made on an 'inside cone' last will flatten over the instep and rearrange itself...take on a different shape than the last.

Sometimes even slight...emphasize 'slight'...fit anomalies will, at least, be subsumed in the tensions and displacement of the leather conforming to the foot.

Eventually, there is an equilibrium that is reached and as time goes by the shape of the foot is more and more deeply and clearly imprinted on on both the insole and the upper...even the outsole to some extent. I suspect it goes without saying that even the best fitting shoe will not feel as good when new as it will a year down the road.

So if all you say is true...and as I said, I agree with you...why in the world would a person want to erase all that 'customization' by forcing the leather of the shoe back into the shape of the last?...insofar as it can. Flattening the insole erases the footbed. And yes, the next time you wear the shoes the footbed will be renewed...up to a point. But that point is not really what the foot wants...or it wouldn't have tried to make a footbed in the first place.

Beyond all that, one has to wonder if this "cycle" is "ideal for the life of the material"--because it is a cycle that treeing itself generates. The lasted tree just makes it more extreme.

Seems to me that that's the genius and beauty of leather shoes--they will conform to the foot...as opposed to say, the box or Crocs or wooden clogs.

FWIW...just a thought.
 
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ntempleman

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Yes the shoes aren’t foot shaped, and lasts aren’t foot shaped, but we make the lasts with the aim of providing a comfortable, functional shoe. I see 3 options here:

1. let the shoe which initially fits as intended dry on its own, and potentially shrink to a different shape

2. insert an ill fitting tree into a shoe that initially fits as intended, and let it take on a new shape from the tree

3. Insert a tree that’s been made to fit the shoe as intended, and allow it to “reset” to its original shape

no contest, imo
 
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DWFII

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I suspect I'm missing something here because I am pretty sure that shoes are last shaped.

But, IMO, there's a false assumption in there: The choice isn't between no trees or "ill-fitting" trees or even lasted trees, if only because one, I don't necessarily advocate "no" trees. But, that said, if the trees prevent the leather from shrinking to a different shape than the last (which I am not entirely sure of...maybe a slightly smaller size) is that necessarily a bad thing? It's the foot we want to fit, make comfortable, etc., not the last or the tree. Either way the foot will try to reshape the shoe.

And, two, I would never advocate "ill-fitting" trees.

It's a quandary, no doubt. One we're not gonna solve here
 
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ntempleman

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Whoops, got myself in a muddle there.

Anyhoo, I’ve seen my fair share of shoes that have been altered dramatically by trees that don’t fit - clients bringing their old shoes to complain that they don’t fit any more, with a spring loaded tree shoved in them which has pushed the vamp deeper (usually seen in tandem with some high street resole job which has shrunk a size or two off the length).
 
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DWFII

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It's a difficult and complicated question...fundamentally, do we want to "reset" the shoe to the last or to the foot?

i don't know the answer.
 

DWFII

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Anyhoo, I’ve seen my fair share of shoes that have been altered dramatically by trees that don’t fit - clients bringing their old shoes to complain that they don’t fit any more, with a spring loaded tree shoved in them which has pushed the vamp deeper (usually seen in tandem with some high street resole job which has shrunk a size or two off the length).

Well, just to address your added observation...maybe for perspective. I have boots 30-40 years old that have never been treed and except for one pair with narrow toes ( feet get longer as we age) every single pair fits me like a glove. And bear in mind that boots are, all other things being equal, hotter and 'sweatier' than shoes.

I have dress shoes 10+ years old that have had nothing but generic trees. (I don't know where you would get lasted trees in the States unless you made them from scratch). The shoes still fit me very, very well...I'd say "like a glove" except it's redundant :cool2: ...not loose over the instep, no lumps or bumps, good footbeds and insoles and linings pristine even though I wear shoes a lot more than boots anymore. And the facing close up to the same place I designed them to. Every time I put them on, I am struck by how comfortable they are.

 
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j ingevaldsson

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^^^ My experience is that the lasted shoe trees will not change the shapes that comes with wear. But I mean, if one is after the best fitting trees you can, there you have it, the closest thing one can get.

G&G and some other makers usually have customers wear the shoes for a period before the shoes are sent off to Hervé Brunelle for the lasted shoe trees to be made, so essentially the shoe trees fit even better than the lasts, one might say.

All good shoe trees have hollowed shape over the footbed, never had lasted shoe trees made for a bespoke shoe without that, so footbed stays intact with wear.
 
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DWFII

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^^^ My experience is that the lasted shoe trees will not change the shapes that comes with wear. But I mean, if one is after the best fitting trees you can, there you have it, the closest thing one can get.

G&G and some other makers usually have customers wear the shoes for a period before the shoes are sent off to Hervé Brunelle for the lasted shoe trees to be made, so essentially the shoe trees fit even better than the lasts, one might say.

All good shoe trees have hollowed shape over the footbed, never had lasted shoe trees made for a bespoke shoe without that, so footbed stays intact with wear.


Well, maybe I'm confused by the terminology. It was my impression that 'lasted shoe trees' were essentially duplicates of the last in terms of length and width and girth. What you're talking about from Brunelle sounds more like bespoke trees. Made for a shoe that, by virtue of previous wearings, is already different in shape (and perhaps size) than the last.

And for what it's worth the footbed doesn't need to be hammered ( the tree can be hollowed out, IOW) to be erased. Every time the shoe insole is flattened lengthwise and left to dry like that, some of the contouring disappears.
 

j ingevaldsson

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Well, maybe I'm confused by the terminology. It was my impression that 'lasted shoe trees' were essentially duplicates of the last in terms of length and width and girth. What you're talking about from Brunelle sounds more like bespoke trees. Made for a shoe that, by virtue of previous wearings, is already different in shape (and perhaps size) than the last.

And for what it's worth the footbed doesn't need to be hammered ( the tree can be hollowed out, IOW) to be erased. Every time the shoe insole is flattened lengthwise and left to dry like that, some of the contouring disappears.

All good shoe tree makers, be it a specialised last/shoe tree maker or the last/bespoke maker themselves, make sure to get an ideal fit to the actual shoe, they have the shoes there and accommodate the tree for the shoe in best way possible.

But yes, lasted shoe trees in general are copies of the lasts. I just mentioned that G&G and some other bespoke makers go beyond that.

I’m not sure I follow you, you say that you don’t speak for no shoe trees, but what is it that you recommend then?
 
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DWFII

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All good shoe tree makers, be it a specialised last/shoe tree maker or the last/bespoke maker themselves, make sure to get an ideal fit to the actual shoe, they have the shoes there and accommodate the tree for the shoe in best way possible.

But yes, lasted shoe trees in general are copies of the lasts. I just mentioned that G&G and some other bespoke makers go beyond that.

I’m not sure I follow you, you say that you don’t speak for no shoe trees, but what is it that you recommend then?


I hope we're having a discussion not an argument here....

Lasts are idealized models of the foot. In general, the cone of the last, for instance, is higher and narrower than the instep of the foot. The insole may or...in my world... may not be wider than the footprint (or narrower). And the beat goes on.

So putting a lasted shoe tree back in a shoe resets the shoe to the last...not to the foot. If the shoe has been lasted tight to the wood (not a gimme) the shoe immediately changes shape and even size a very slight bit once the last is pulled. So a tree that is not an exact duplicate of the last in terms of size has to be smaller, by default. Doesn't mean it's ill-fitting but it does mean that the shoe is being reset to something less than the last and closer to the foot...esp. if the shoes have been worn several times before the tree is made to it (the shoe).

I am not putting my name up for consideration as an expert in shoe trees. But I do know leather and shoes and I know how they behave in a multitude of situations. For instance, while it is true that leather will shrink up when it dries, at least 90% of that (if not more) is simply a return to normal. Simply because when leather gets wet, it gets bigger, thicker, patterns get larger. It plumps up--water fills the spaces between the fibers, the fibers themselves swell, and the fibers move around a bit. But I'm not sure the concommitent shrinkage is all that significant. Does a hat band shrink such that you can no longer wear the hat when summer comes? Does baseball mitt or gloves shrink significantly if allowed to dry slowly and out of the sun or away from heat? Does a saddle shrink after a race? I suspect the answer is similar to what I've been saying all along--"not significantly." Tempered leather returns to its original size, for the most part, if nothing else is done to it..

Beyond that...and yet another consideration--a pair of shoes in a regular rotation are seldom, if ever, completely dry.

So what do I recommend or use? I use generic off-the-rack, close fitting (as opposed to "ill-fitting"), shoe trees for my shoes, and nothing whatsoever for my boots. When I slip a pair of boots on, I cannot...repeat, cannot...chase a 'bow wave' of pipes or wrinkles across the instep or the joint. The same holds true for my shoes. And I have no gaps at the top line or heel. My feet do not slide forward in my boots or shoes. And all this after wet lasting (removing much of the stretch) and 30+ years of no trees or generic trees. Go figure. I can post photos if you would like.

I will say, I started this conversation thinking this was a "tempest-in-a-teapot', neither here nor there. But now I am beginning to suspect that it is much like the "how-to-maintain-your- expensive-shoes" or "what-additional-high-priced-products-do-I-need-to-buy-to-justify-the-$500.00-plus-I-just-spent-at-Macy's" controversy, when the very best advice, and all you really need to know, is simply to keep them clean. Something else to throw money at...in lieu of understanding.

FWIW, IMO, YMMV....
 
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