Leather Quality and Properties

[patrickBOOTH]

Too bad you didn't deconstruct those shells...would have been interesting. Oh! but those were hand welted, weren't they?

These shells were hand-welted. I haven't worn Goodyear shoes in some time now.

One has to wonder what the mold was growing on? All living things need nourishment to survive...can't imagine varnish providing much if any.

It was growing on the moisture from my sweaty ass feet.

 

[DWFII]

It was growing on the moisture from my sweaty ass feet.

Hmmm...well, that further undermines the idea that plastic or varnished trees will clog the pores of the leather. The sweat had to come from the leather carrying nutrients from the leather and chemicals from your sweat.

Unless, of course, you rubbed the trees all over your sweaty feet prior to putting them in the shoes. Kinky.

 

[ixk]

A plastic last or tree will not 'clog' the pores. Many many makers, as well as probably all manufacturers use plastic lasts. Now, not all of them wet last nor put the uppers in steam cabinets, but if I last a pair of boots (wet), it will dry overnight sufficient for me to work with it the next morning.

For something to 'clog' the pores, it has to fill the pores and seal them off. (Is this a language thing?) Shoe cream and shoe polish will clog pores. As will neoprene cement, big time. Plastic film or plastic shoe trees may obstruct the wicking of moisture to some degree but not the way clogging would.

As for short intervals of air drying, shoemakers (or perhaps more often bootmakers) and other leather workers regularly leave wet leather out for a time to air dry somewhat before lasting or tooling, etc.. It's called 'tempering'. As long as the leather retains a modest percentage of moisture it will be 'workable.' Some even say that a 'tempered' vamp will stretch more and more easily than either a dry vamp or a wet vamp. Which is, I suspect the rationale behind steam cabinets.

As another example, I often 'hammer jack' sections of soling leather to harden them...I soak the leather until it is thoroughly wet and then let it dry until it comes back to 'dry' colour. At which point, I hammer them (and can see the residual moisture coming to the surface) and when they are dry they are at least 30% thinner, 20% larger(width and length) and 60% harder than they were--the leather was malleable., you see, despite sometime as much as 6-8 hours drying. And they will stay that way. At least until wet again. It's an old technique and forms the basis for why 'lap irons' were invented.

I didn't know soaking leather had such a dramatic effect.

In fact, I had a Edward Green shoe whose heel stiffener was maybe coming loose or something and squeaking like crazy. Several cobblers told me I'd have to send it to EG and pay hundreds to have the whole shoe remade.

Then an old bootmaker told me to soak the whole thing in water, twist the shoe around, and it actually worked.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Hmmm...well, that further undermines the idea that plastic or varnished trees will clog the pores of the leather. The sweat had to come from the leather carrying nutrients from the leather and chemicals from your sweat.

Unless, of course, you rubbed the trees all over your sweaty feet prior to putting them in the shoes. Kinky.

Well if it is the former, it speaks to the natural properties of leather skin and its reactivity to the elements around it.

If it is the latter, it speaks favorably to Patrick's bohemian mindset ??.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Hmmm...well, that further undermines the idea that plastic or varnished trees will clog the pores of the leather. The sweat had to come from the leather carrying nutrients from the leather and chemicals from your sweat.

Unless, of course, you rubbed the trees all over your sweaty feet prior to putting them in the shoes. Kinky.

I think it is because the lining was soaked with my sweat.

 

[ntempleman]

Thing is if wood supposedly absorbs all the moisture as per the marketing, and somehow you’re left with wet wood and dry leather, then how does the wood dry? Certainly wouldn’t move the long way through all that wood to the other side to evaporate

I see it more likely that the two materials find an equilibrium of “wetness” where some moisture is drawn from the leather, then the two dry concurrently when the moisture drawn from the surface of the leather into the air then draws moisture from the wood in capillary action

 

[j ingevaldsson]

A plastic last or tree will not 'clog' the pores. Many many makers, as well as probably all manufacturers use plastic lasts. Now, not all of them wet last nor put the uppers in steam cabinets, but if I last a pair of boots (wet), it will dry overnight sufficient for me to work with it the next morning.

For something to 'clog' the pores, it has to fill the pores and seal them off. (Is this a language thing?) Shoe cream and shoe polish will clog pores. As will neoprene cement, big time. Plastic film or plastic shoe trees may obstruct the wicking of moisture to some degree but not the way clogging would.

As for short intervals of air drying, shoemakers (or perhaps more often bootmakers) and other leather workers regularly leave wet leather out for a time to air dry somewhat before lasting or tooling, etc.. It's called 'tempering'. As long as the leather retains a modest percentage of moisture it will be 'workable.' Some even say that a 'tempered' vamp will stretch more and more easily than either a dry vamp or a wet vamp. Which is, I suspect the rationale behind steam cabinets.

As another example, I often 'hammer jack' sections of soling leather to harden them...I soak the leather until it is thoroughly wet and then let it dry until it comes back to 'dry' colour. At which point, I hammer them (and can see the residual moisture coming to the surface) and when they are dry they are at least 30% thinner, 20% larger(width and length) and 60% harder than they were--the leather was malleable., you see, despite sometime as much as 6-8 hours drying. And they will stay that way. At least until wet again. It's an old technique and forms the basis for why 'lap irons' were invented.

First, with “clog” I intentionally put it between quotation marks since I don’t know the correct English term, but as you say, I talk about “obstruct the wicking of moisture”, about not letting the leather “breath” properly.

Secondly, a shoe last of plastic has a completely different surface than a plastic or varnished shoe tree. The lasts have this uneven, slightly “fibrous” surface (again don’t know exactly how to describe, but you know). A plastic or varnished shoe tree are completely smooth, which especially when has some pressure against the leather prevents it from “breathing”, similar to when you put a plastic bag against your skin and leave it there for a while. Put a plastic last against your skin and you won’t feel a thing, due to its uneven surface. That, and the fact that it doesn’t absorb any moisture at all (again, I’ve never said wood don’t absorb moisture, I’ve said it’s not the main purpose of the wooden shoe tree), will not be good for the wet, sweaty leather in the long run.

Which leads me to the third thing, you can’t compare shoe manufacturing to what the shoes will be exposed to during years after years. Like I said above, nothing is especially problematic when it happens every now and then (the making of the shoe happen once, and it’s exposed to pure clean water etc, quite gently stuff indeed). I mean, travel plastic shoe trees I see no problem with, the shoes are only with them for shorter periods of time. But if every time a shoe have been worn and stuffed with sweat, perhaps dead skin etc, and they have plastic or varnished shoe trees inserted in them, year after year, it will detoriate quicker.

I actually know it for a fact. A friend who is a cobbler experimented with two of his own pairs, used plastic shoe trees in one shoe and cedar wood shoe trees in the other. Don’t remember exactly after what time, and only had it described to me so didn’t see the actual shoes myself, but the shoes with the plastic shoe trees had a lot of black “fungus” or whatever it’s called on it, was apparently more fragile (hadn’t cracked yet though) and looked much worse than the sibling shoe who had wooden tree. It was actually extremely evident in the way that the bad looking surface of the lining stopped exactly where the plastic had covered it (was these quite short plastic front parts with a spring).

Another example of how wet leather doesn’t do well when put against a completely flat surface (although here regular painted wooden shelf, so would be less problematic then the plastic/varnished shoe trees who has pressure against the leather) is how I had mold developed on the sole after I let shoe stay flat on a shelf after walking out in rainy weather:

Wrote a bit more about it in this article here. Nowadays I use this type of shelf surface to make sure to avoid this, since one doesn’t always remember to put wet shoes on the side.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Just trim the mold off. You don't know anything about dry aging shoes? Come on man.

Because my latest pair of Saint Crispins are the most aggressive shoes I own, I have posed them here with this huge ******* chunk of meat I'm gonna eat tonight. Make a great night everybody.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Just trim the mold off. You don't know anything about dry aging shoes? Come on man.

I remember I did scrape off the mold with a dinner knife...

 

[DWFII]

Just two thing to put all my remarks in context:

First, I repeat, I would use plastic shoe trees myself. But I don't thin that plastic by itself significantly inhibits drying. If it takes 72 hours for a shoe with a plastic shoe tree to dry out...well it was pretty wet by comparison to a boot that was soaked to the core and only takes 24 hours.

Secondly, unless the shoe were identical in your friend's experiment, I don't see the significance. Different lining leathers will respond differently....both to sweat coming off the foot and being held up against an occlusive surface for X amount of time (was the time even the same?)

And third, as was mentioned several times, it is not really the material of the shoe trees that is at issue...at least for me...it is the fact that whatever the material the leather, all other things being equal will dry out and almost certainly within a short enough time to prevent problems.

Given the wetting and dryingup against and in conjuction with plastic that I do...probably more than most shoemakers and certainly more than consumers do deliberately, I don't believe that the plastic is a problem at least not in the context of a shoe tree.

Now, put some wet leather in a warn, preferrably dark place in a tightly sealed plastic bag and let it sit 24 hours +/- and you'll have a toadstool farm.

 

[Proleet]

Just two thing to put all my remarks in context:

First, I repeat, I would use plastic shoe trees myself. But I don't thin that plastic by itself significantly inhibits drying. If it takes 72 hours for a shoe with a plastic shoe tree to dry out...well it was pretty wet by comparison to a boot that was soaked to the core and only takes 24 hours.

Secondly, unless the shoe were identical in your friend's experiment, I don't see the significance. Different lining leathers will respond differently....both to sweat coming off the foot and being held up against an occlusive surface for X amount of time (was the time even the same?)

And third, as was mentioned several times, it is not really the material of the shoe trees that is at issue...at least for me...it is the fact that whatever the material the leather, all other things being equal will dry out and almost certainly within a short enough time to prevent problems.

Given the wetting and dryingup against and in conjuction with plastic that I do...probably more than most shoemakers and certainly more than consumers do deliberately, I don't believe that the plastic is a problem at least not in the context of a shoe tree.

Now, put some wet leather in a warn, preferrably dark place in a tightly sealed plastic bag and let it sit 24 hours +/- and you'll have a toadstool farm.

maybe an idea for new Lattanzi shoes to sell to oligarchs - toadstool infused leather shoes!

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Just two thing to put all my remarks in context:

First, I repeat, I would use plastic shoe trees myself. But I don't thin that plastic by itself significantly inhibits drying. If it takes 72 hours for a shoe with a plastic shoe tree to dry out...well it was pretty wet by comparison to a boot that was soaked to the core and only takes 24 hours.

Secondly, unless the shoe were identical in your friend's experiment, I don't see the significance. Different lining leathers will respond differently....both to sweat coming off the foot and being held up against an occlusive surface for X amount of time (was the time even the same?)

And third, as was mentioned several times, it is not really the material of the shoe trees that is at issue...at least for me...it is the fact that whatever the material the leather, all other things being equal will dry out and almost certainly within a short enough time to prevent problems.

Given the wetting and dryingup against and in conjuction with plastic that I do...probably more than most shoemakers and certainly more than consumers do deliberately, I don't believe that the plastic is a problem at least not in the context of a shoe tree.

Now, put some wet leather in a warn, preferrably dark place in a tightly sealed plastic bag and let it sit 24 hours +/- and you'll have a toadstool farm.

In the experiment, he had two pairs of shoes, where on one pair the left shoe had the plastic shoe tree and the right shoe wood, and in the other pair the other way around. The result were similar on both pairs. So yes, the conditions were exactly the same, and the result showed clearly that plastic or wooden shoe trees matters.

On the topic of experiments, on my bespoke G&G chukka boots they put Baker oak bark tanned soles on one shoe and Garat chestnut tanned sole on the other, interesting to follow how they wear, I have them in both rain and on the graveled/sanded/salted winter pavements here in sweden

 

[DWFII]

On the topic of experiments, on my bespoke G&G chukka boots they put Baker oak bark tanned soles on one shoe and Garat chestnut tanned sole on the other, interesting to follow how they wear, I have them in both rain and on the graveled/sanded/salted winter pavements here in sweden

that's interesting...I will be looking forward to the results.

 

[wurger]

So reading from the above, shoe trees slow down the drying of shoes, and push back along the treadline of the shoes.
From that, what’s the point of lasted shoes trees other than they look cool, a well fitting shoe don’t have stresses on the toe boxes or the heels.

 

[DWFII]

Mostly to restore the shape after wearing. Maybe the size, although if a shoe is stretched out a lasted tree won't make them smaller.

Treeing, in general, not just with lasted trees, also flattens creases and makes cleaning down in the creases easier. And that's one of the best reasons of all.

Personally, as a maker, I'm of the opinion that a good fitting tree--a size nine tree for a size nine shoe (IOW)-- is just fine. I seriously doubt that a lasted tree adds anything of significance. Maybe if the heel stiffener is thin or less than 'stiff' as who should say, and esp. if the owner is not using a shoe horn, you might see some benefit. But lasted or not, trees cannot correct damage from poor maintenance or abuse.