Leather Quality and Properties

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by VegTan, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. JermynStreet

    JermynStreet Senior member

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    Very cool. Off topic, but interesting to see how tight the network is. Are all of your shoes that you own and wear your own creations or have you ever purchased from another maker? I know that Lobb is your favorite maker- ever been to its workshop?
     


  2. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    No, I don't wear anything I didn't make...oops, I lie--I have a pair of Simms wading boots. I have made my own but leather gets so heavy when immersed in water for hours at a time.

    And no again, never been to Lobbs. Never been to Europe, but if I go Lobbs is one of my first stops...after Castle Sween on Loch Sween. I really wanted to visit Delos in St. Denis but he's gone now. Would like to visit Carreducker and G&G.

    The bootmaking network is pretty tight in Texas but makers outside of Texas are not really considered "one of the gang."
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013


  3. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I don't know if I can judge but James is a heck of a nice guy and dedicated to preserving traditional techniques.
     


  5. VegTan

    VegTan Senior member

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    Adams LeatherWorks is an expert on holsters.
    Clarence E. Kapp (Kapp Brothers Shoe Mfg. Corp.) is an expert on shoes.
    John Arthur Wilson, Sc.D. is an expert on leather.
    The American Leather Chemists Association is an expert on leather.
    James Saddlery Australia is an expert on saddle.
    American Leather Producers, Inc. is an expert on leather.
    ......
    If you have no objection on my excerpts, let's drop it.


    I thought you implied your experience was scientific.



    This is "making a fool of me".

     


  6. VegTan

    VegTan Senior member

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    Unlike autoxidation, dehydrogenation doesn't occur in the open air, does it?

    Water vapor permeability of mineral oil isn't bad, while that of petrolatum (Vaseline) is certainly bad.

    http://www.dowcorning.com/content/discover/discoverchem/si-industrial-apps.aspx

    [​IMG]


    BTW, the below wax is used by Redel Ogawa (curriers of shell cordovan) and sold by Hasegawaya (Redel Ogawa's leather care department). It consists of natural fish oil, mineral oil, and carnauba wax.

    http://10cube-leathermart.blogspot.com/2013/06/begin8.html
    [​IMG]
     


  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I don't know that I've disagreed with any of those so-called 'experts" you listed above. That said, what makes them experts in your opinion? The fact that they have posted something on the 'Net? The fact that they are associated with a source that you assume represents and values quality...and truth? None of that makes them experts in anything but promotional marketing.

    Nevertheless it may come as a surprise to you that after 40 + years in the Trade I am an "expert" on both leather and shoemaking. (At least until a real one comes along.) My experiences and opinions are every bit as valid as any of those people...maybe moreso simply because my remarks come "straight from the bench" not filtered through public relations firms or advertising hype.

    The other point is that while those folks may be experts...what are you an expert on? From what I can see, using an internet search engine is your major (only?) forte and not much else...unless it is posting a spate of marginally related and often suspect information from sources that you yourself do not have the ability to filter or verify. Or really even comment on without posting more links and spurious quotes.

    It's one thing to sparingly use links and quotes to say "look, this person has had the same experience as I have had." It's another to say "I don't know anything about it but these guys say such and such so it must be true." Especially if it's sole purpose is to introduce controversy.

    And in the end, to the extent that you have a "voice", it's invariably someone else's.

    "We can appear (sic) knowledgeable with other men's knowledge but we cannot be wise with other men's wisdom. Michel de Montaigne

    --
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013


  8. Numbernine

    Numbernine Senior member

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    [\Spoiler]

    Can this product be purchased in USA Very interesting
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013


  9. Munky

    Munky Senior member

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    It is a shame that those on here who are real leather experts find it difficult to get on. For all of us who appreciate your informative posts, please try to respect each other and move back to the real issues of sharing your wealth of knowledge about leather.
     


  10. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    You keep missing the point...and we have no choice but to chalk it up to ignorance...namely that just because someone, somewhere, gets the hair-brained idea to use mineral oil (which is notably cheaper than other products) doesn't make it a good idea or the person purveying it an expert. On anything.

    There's lots of examples in the shoe Trade of products being cheapened...degraded...so that they will yield more profit to their makers. GY welting is a good example of that. As is leatherboard insoles.

    “There is nothing in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and he who considers price only is that man's lawful prey.” John Ruskin

    Some people are happy with the results--"ignorance is bliss." But it doesn't make it right ...or quality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013


  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    It is a shame and I'm certain it makes people uncomfortable but I want to either help people who want to understand or talk to other people who do understand (experts). That's what a discussion forum is for and about. There are some very knowledgeable people contributing to this thread--Glenjay for one. That said...and maybe I'm alone in this...I get as uncomfortable as you do although for a different reason--trying to answer links and postings that are seemingly posted just for the sake of contradiction (see VegTan's response to Glenjay).

    And for which no one can be held or is accountable. No feedback or discourse possible. I guess that's another old-fashioned idiosyncrasy of mine--the idea that each of us needs to be responsible for what we say or post. It certainly doesn't seem to be a high priority for some.

    How can you have a discussion with a hyperlink? And what do we need a discussion for anyway if hyperlinks are an acceptable stand-in for a real person. Hell, we can all do the same Google searches that VT is doing. Have a question? Don't post it here...just do a search.

    I'd be glad to talk to "real leather experts" if they were here to the degree that some would have us believe.

    I think it's highly disrespectful...to all of us--people looking for answers and those who may not have all the answers but certainly have some...to be smothered or "shouted down" by proxy voices that, by virtue of their absence, are at the very least "to be wary of" simply because they can not answer or explain.

    --
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013


  12. Munky

    Munky Senior member

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    I think, perhaps, you understand me. I mean that it is a shame that those people who are experts can so easily fall out with one another. I hope this current 'falling out' will not last too long. I really appreciate the knowledge that you and others share with us.
     


  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Perhaps you meant "misunderstand"?

    No offense...and not to put too fine a point on it...I've yet to run across a bona fide expert on the subject of leather or shoes, here on SF, with whom I have much, if any, disagreement.

    I recall a year or two ago one of these Google Gurus trying to use the blog of a shoemaker in London to refute some of my remarks. Turns out the shoemaker and I agreed...and still to this day agree...on nearly everything. The SF poster was misinformed or ill-informed or just looking to score points.

    The amazing and remarkable thing, IMO...both to me and to any objective outsider...is how little the real experts on any subject disagree.

    And thank you, BTW, for your kind words and respect..
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013


  14. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    DW, are you talking about Carreducker and the discussion about Carreducker's comment on Goodyear welting construction?
     


  15. glenjay

    glenjay Senior member

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    Autoxidation and dehydrogenation are both oxidation, and open air is not necessary for either. Dehydrogenation is the process of a hydrogen atom experiencing electron loss and becoming reactive enough to bond to a different molecule. Autoxidation is a more general descriptor of sorts that relates to the natural process of oxidation (without introducing an intentional process, or high heat, to cause it) ie. it happens in a natural "open air" setting. This is typically done by the addition of oxygen atoms drawn from the air, however, oxidation does not need open air to happen naturally. Oxidation can also happen by getting something wet (stepping in a puddle) and drawing oxygen atoms from the water (H2O). Oxidation can also happen naturally through exposure to radiation (like UV - as in sunlight), which is one way dehydrogenation happens naturally. Therefore dehydrogenation can be a type of autoxidation which is a type of oxidation. Wikipedia describes Autoxidation in part as "...any oxidation that occurs in open air or in presence of oxygen and/or UV radiation..."
     


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