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BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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I hope we're having a discussion not an argument here....

Lasts are idealized models of the foot. In general, the cone of the last, for instance, is higher and narrower than the instep of the foot. The insole may or...in my world... may not be wider than the footprint (or narrower). And the beat goes on.

So putting a lasted shoe tree back in a shoe resets the shoe to the last...not to the foot. If the shoe has been lasted tight to the wood (not a gimme) the shoe immediately changes shape and even size a very slight bit once the last is pulled. So a tree that is not an exact duplicate of the last in terms of size has to be smaller, by default. Doesn't mean it's ill-fitting but it does mean that the shoe is being reset to something less than the last and closer to the foot...esp. if the shoes have been worn several times before the tree is made to it (the shoe).

I am not putting my name up for consideration as an expert in shoe trees. But I do know leather and shoes and I know how they behave in a multitude of situations. For instance, while it is true that leather will shrink up when it dries, at least 90% of that (if not more) is simply a return to normal. Simply because when leather gets wet, it gets bigger, thicker, patterns get larger. It plumps up--water fills the spaces between the fibers, the fibers themselves swell, and the fibers move around a bit. But I'm not sure the concommitent shrinkage is all that significant. Does a hat band shrink such that you can no longer wear the hat when summer comes? Does baseball mitt or gloves shrink significantly if allowed to dry slowly and out of the sun or away from heat? Does a saddle shrink after a race? I suspect the answer is similar to what I've been saying all along--"not significantly." Tempered leather returns to its original size, for the most part, if nothing else is done to it..

Beyond that...and yet another consideration--a pair of shoes in a regular rotation are seldom, if ever, completely dry.

So what do I recommend or use? I use generic off-the-rack, close fitting (as opposed to "ill-fitting"), shoe trees for my shoes, and nothing whatsoever for my boots. When I slip a pair of boots on, I cannot...repeat, cannot...chase a 'bow wave' of pipes or wrinkle across the instep or the joint. The same holds true for my shoes. And I have no gaps at the top line of heel. My feet do not slide forward in my boots or shoes. And all this after wet lasting (removing much of the stretch) and 30+ years of no trees or generic trees. Go figure. I can post photos if you would like.

I will say, I started this conversation thinking this was a "tempest-in-a-teapot', neither here nor there. But now I am beginning to suspect that it is much like the "how-to-maintain-your- expensive-shoes" or "what-additional-high-priced products-do-I-need-to-buy-to-justify-the-$500.00-plus-I-just-spent-at-Macy's" controversy, when the very best advice, and all you really need to know, is simply to keep them clean. Something else to throw money at...in lieu of understanding.

FWIW, IMO, YMMV....

I am neither a shoe maker, last maker, nor purveyor of shoes. I am merely a wearer and purchaser of them.

From my experience and what was told to me from a few Bespoke makers, the premise would be to search for and use an appropriate fitting tree.
Ideally, it would be a lasted shoe tree (a tree that closely mimics the original last in which the shoe was created).
Saying that, allow me to share an experience I had.

I was commissioning a pair of shoes from a Bespoke maker in France. He noticed my apprehension when he quoted me the price for the Bespoke trees (Hervé Brunelle makes his trees). He proceeded onto grabbing a pair of generic spring loaded trees. He said make sure if you buy generic trees they fit like this. Which was a tree, as @DWFII stated, fit well.

Being the shoe tree snob that I am, I immediately questioned the action. He said, think of shoe wearing as a race. This is your checkpoint (a shoe with a last in it). This is where you want to go as you are racing (he placed leather around my foot that was tight but comfortable). He said why do you want to undo the energy, sweat, and tears it took you to get to this point in the race to end up back at the original check point?

He said my job (the shoemakers job) is to put this (pointed at the last) to fit comfortably into this (pointed at my foot) not vice versa. This (pointed at the shoe tree) is merely a place holder.

All told, he seems to agree with both Nicholas & DWF. Use the bespoke tree, but do not go insane when you can not.
 
Last edited:

j ingevaldsson

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I hope we're having a discussion not an argument here....

Lasts are idealized models of the foot. In general, the cone of the last, for instance, is higher and narrower than the instep of the foot. The insole may or...in my world... may not be wider than the footprint (or narrower). And the beat goes on.

So putting a lasted shoe tree back in a shoe resets the shoe to the last...not to the foot. If the shoe has been lasted tight to the wood (not a gimme) the shoe immediately changes shape and even size a very slight bit once the last is pulled. So a tree that is not an exact duplicate of the last in terms of size has to be smaller, by default. Doesn't mean it's ill-fitting but it does mean that the shoe is being reset to something less than the last and closer to the foot...esp. if the shoes have been worn several times before the tree is made to it (the shoe).

I am not putting my name up for consideration as an expert in shoe trees. But I do know leather and shoes and I know how they behave in a multitude of situations. For instance, while it is true that leather will shrink up when it dries, at least 90% of that (if not more) is simply a return to normal. Simply because when leather gets wet, it gets bigger, thicker, patterns get larger. It plumps up--water fills the spaces between the fibers, the fibers themselves swell, and the fibers move around a bit. But I'm not sure the concommitent shrinkage is all that significant. Does a hat band shrink such that you can no longer wear the hat when summer comes? Does baseball mitt or gloves shrink significantly if allowed to dry slowly and out of the sun or away from heat? Does a saddle shrink after a race? I suspect the answer is similar to what I've been saying all along--"not significantly." Tempered leather returns to its original size, for the most part, if nothing else is done to it..

Beyond that...and yet another consideration--a pair of shoes in a regular rotation are seldom, if ever, completely dry.

So what do I recommend or use? I use generic off-the-rack, close fitting (as opposed to "ill-fitting"), shoe trees for my shoes, and nothing whatsoever for my boots. When I slip a pair of boots on, I cannot...repeat, cannot...chase a 'bow wave' of pipes or wrinkle across the instep or the joint. The same holds true for my shoes. And I have no gaps at the top line of heel. My feet do not slide forward in my boots or shoes. And all this after wet lasting (removing much of the stretch) and 30+ years of no trees or generic trees. Go figure. I can post photos if you would like.

I will say, I started this conversation thinking this was a "tempest-in-a-teapot', neither here nor there. But now I am beginning to suspect that it is much like the "how-to-maintain-your- expensive-shoes" or "what-additional-high-priced products-do-I-need-to-buy-to-justify-the-$500.00-plus-I-just-spent-at-Macy's" controversy, when the very best advice, and all you really need to know, is simply to keep them clean. Something else to throw money at...in lieu of understanding.

FWIW, IMO, YMMV....
I am neither a shoe maker, last maker, nor purveyor of shoes. I am merely a wearer and purchaser of them.

From my experience and what was told to me from a few Bespoke makers, the premise would be to search for and use an appropriate fitting tree.
Ideally, it would be a lasted shoe tree (a tree that closely mimics the original last in which the shoe was created).
Saying that, allow me to share an experience I had.

I was commissioning a pair from a Bespoke maker from France. He noticed my apprehension when he quoted me the price for the Bespoke trees (Hervé Brunelle makes his trees). He proceeded on to grabbing a pair of generic spring loaded trees. He said make sure if you buy generic trees they fit like this. Which was a tree, as @DWFII, fit well.

Being the shoe tree snob that I am, I immediately questioned the action. He said think of shoe wearing as a race. This is your checkpoint (a shoe with a last in it). This where you want to go as you are racing (he placed leather around my foot that was tight but comfortable). He said why do you want to undo the energy, sweat, and tears it to you to get to this point in the race to end up back at the original check point?

He said my job (the shoemakers job) is to put this (pointed at the last) to fit comfortably into this (pointed at my foot) not vice versa. This (pointed at the shoe tree) is merely a place holder.

All told he seems to agree with both Nicholas & DWF. Use the bespoke tree, but do not go insane when you can not.

To summarise what I’ve been saying, since I’m not sure it’s fully understood for some reason:
1. Use lasted shoe trees if available (exactly your summary Bcool above).
2. If not, use as well fitting shoe trees as possible, if anything slightly small than large.
3. Avoid plastic or varnished shoe trees for everyday use.

That’s it.

(I have bespoke shoes with generic shoe trees as well, for example form Melker Shoes who don’t offer lasted trees, I would have to solve those myself. Not worth it, when I can get good fitting generic ones.)
 

DWFII

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Point of reference...if lasted shoe trees grew on bushes, and I could pick one that was slightly under-ripe (1/2 size shorter, 1/2 width smaller), I'd use lasted shoe trees in my shoes (not my boots), all day long. I wouldn't go mining for them, tho.

FWIW, I have always loved vintage shoe trees and used to scour Ebay for them.
 

DWFII

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Thank you for the explanations, what are some pointers for a well fitting tree vs a poor fitting one?

I guess that depends on how you define it. I'm sure that some here...both makers and users, will think my definitions are inadequate.

But, in no particular order...

A shoe tree doesn't have to have the same toe shape as the shoe, although it must not be wider.

A shoe tree does not have to be the same length (SLL-Standard Last Length AKA 'stick') as the last/shoe but it must not be longer. The toe stiffener creates a dome over the end of the shoe that if attached to the insole correctly effectively melds the last inch or more of the shoe into a unit. So a shoe tree that is two or even three sizes shorter than the last will still control that last inch of the shoe.

A shoe tree must not be even a little wider than the insole anywhere but can be a somewhat narrower in the forepart and even a lot narrower in the heel seat area. Same rationale as in the toe area--the stiffener creates a unit with the insole that is, within reason, very difficult to distort.

A shoe tree must not be thicker than the forepart of the last or higher than the cone.

It must be long enough and fit snug enough that it flattens the forepart of the shoe--insole and the vamp such that all creases are flattened and 'opened' up.

Most vintage shoe trees, if chosen mindfully (a size 9 tree for a size 9 shoe) meet all these parameters without further concern. And some are adjustable for length...a size or two.

Naturally, the closer the shoe tree is to the length and width of the last, the better. But given what the shoe tree is tasked to do, it doesn't have to be a carbon copy of the last or even just "a little unripe."

FWIW, IMO, YMMV, WFYB *


*(whatever floats your boat)

?
 
Last edited:

bjhofkin

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For some reason I just feel compelled to note that I'm currently reading this thread about abstruse matters of leather and shoemaking…while sitting outside on my front steps on a beautiful evening here in Minneapolis…with a smartphone in one hand…and an aluminum baseball bat in the other. Sorry for the #realtalk but just had to say it.
 

Luigi_M

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I guess that depends on how you define it. I'm sure that some here...both makers and users, will think my definitions are inadequate.

But, in no particular order...

A shoe tree doesn't have to have the same toe shape as the shoe, although it must not be wider.

A shoe tree does not have to be the same length (SLL-Standard last length AKA 'stick') as the last/shoe. The toe stiffener creates a dome over the end of the shoe that if attached to the insole correctly effectively melds the last inch or more of the shoe into a unit. So a shoe tree that is two or even three sizes shorter than the last will still control that last inch of the shoe. But at the same time a shoe tree must not be longer than the last.

A shoe tree must not be wider than the insole anywhere but can be a little narrower in the forepart and even a lot narrower in the heel seat area. Same rationale as in the toe area--the stiffener creates a unit with the insole that is, within reason, very difficult to distort.

A shoe tree must not be thicker than the forepart of the last or higher than the cone.

It must be long enough and fit snug enough that it flattens the forepart of the shoe--insole and the vamp such that all creases are flattened and 'opened' up.

Most vintage shoe trees, if chosen mindfully (a size 9 tree for a size 9 shoe) meet all these parameters without further concern.And some are adjustable for length...a size or two.

Naturally, the closer the shoe tree is to the length and width of the last, the better. But given what the shoe tree is tasked to do, it doesn't have to be a carbon copy of the last or even just "a little unripe."

FWIW, IMO, YMMV, WFYB *


*(whatever floats your boat)

?
Thank You DWFII.
As usual, your points are duly noted :fonz:
 

DWFII

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Thank You DWFII.
As usual, your points are duly noted :fonz:

:cheers:

You're welcome. Did some minor editing, just a moment ago, to clarify one or two points, FWIW.

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

?
 

Luigi_M

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:cheers:

You're welcome. Did some minor editing, just a moment ago, to clarify one or two points, FWIW.

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

?
ob_da7c14_theo-james-hat-off.gif

(sorry, second time I use this pic, but it fits well the circumstance ...)
 

DWFII

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willyto

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I just read through the last 15 pages and it was really nice. Lots of interesting topics.

A point that was made clear to me is that shell sucks and I haven't tried it yet nor does it appeal to me so I guess that's good.

I like loafers though... don't punish me for it!
 

greenhouse

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For some reason I just feel compelled to note that I'm currently reading this thread about abstruse matters of leather and shoemaking…while sitting outside on my front steps on a beautiful evening here in Minneapolis…with a smartphone in one hand…and an aluminum baseball bat in the other. Sorry for the #realtalk but just had to say it.
God speed.
 

bjhofkin

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Thanks man – I'm good and thankfully not super concerned about my personal safety.

Just figured people might appreciate the absurdity of what I was reading on my phone while on informal guard duty for my block!

God speed.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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I know @ntempleman may have mentioned this previously, but what would be the advantage of using felt material vs cork for filling in the hollow area of the welt?

I believe the cork is both easier and cheaper for the maker, but doesn't cork purportedly provide you a springiness when you walk? Helping absorb vibrations, and molds to your foot.

Does Felt also possess these qualities? How much more expensive is it over a Cork sheet? Were a maker to have a small hollow cavity to fill in, how hard is it really to cut a piece of felt vs cutting a cork sheet?
 

bjhofkin

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Not Nicholas, but I've learned FROM Nicholas (and @DWFII) that cork 1) can displace and 2) can dry and crack over time.

Felt doesn't do either of those things.

I know @ntempleman may have mentioned this previously, but what would be the advantage of using felt material vs cork for filling in the hollow area of the welt?

I believe the cork is both easier and cheaper for the maker, but doesn't cork purportedly provide you a springiness when you walk? Helping absorb vibrations, and molds to your foot.

Does Felt also possess these qualities? How much more expensive is it over a Cork sheet? Were a maker to have a small hollow cavity to fill in, how hard is it really to cut a piece of felt vs cutting a cork sheet?
 

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