Leather Quality and Properties

[Nick V.]

Thank you for the shank info. Its good to know what materials shoe makers use in their construction.

I read somewhere believe in the AE thread that the newer AE shoes use wooden shanks.

No prob.....
I'm not aware of AE newer models being made with wooden shanks. I haven't seen any yet.

 

[vmss]

If I recall correctly it was someone who used to work with pre Caleres AE that mentioned after the move to the orange coloured outsoles they started using wooden shanks to give more support. Apparently the newer orange coloured outsoles is more flimsy therefore need the support of the wooden shank.

 

[Nick V.]

If I recall correctly it was someone who used to work with pre Caleres AE that mentioned after the move to the orange coloured outsoles they started using wooden shanks to give more support. Apparently the newer orange coloured outsoles is more flimsy therefore need the support of the wooden shank.

I just checked with AE. They're not using wooden shanks.
Here's another POV regarding Carmina:
http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2014/04/carmina-the-review.html

 

[vmss]

Thank you for pointing that out to me. I lost track.
I have been dealing with AE shoes on a daily basis for over 4 decades. I can't recall the last time I saw a wooden shank in a pair of their shoes.
They don't use shanks. How someone can come up with a ratio of "6 out of 10" of their wooden shanks break is beyond me. They also do 270 degree welts. Still no shank. As was mentioned in the video that shoe was re-soled before (1/2 sole) I suppose the previous repair person could have put that shank in.

I respect your comment about "not intending to bash" Carmina. Did you even give them a chance to rectify the problem before posting your dissatisfaction with the inferior shoe linings they presumably use? Here again, we deal with quite a bit of Carmina's If they had a consistent problem with their liners don't you think I would be aware of it?
Now because of this lining problem makes a repair job almost impossible and more expensive not sure if its even worthed
Why would you NOT take this up with Carmina. If it's a valid complaint don't you think it would be fair of you to give them an opportunity to rectify the problem before posting the matter on a public forum. I wouldn't call it bashing but I would call it unfair.

Have you ever had any problems with the Bespoke shoes that you may (may not) have made for you?

@Nick V. Maybe you can help me out since you are in the shoe repair business. Do you see the white spot at the area of my little toe? It has a hole in it. My little toe goes right through it makes it very uncomfortable. Is it repairable? What would your honest advise be?

 

[Nick V.]

@Nick V. Maybe you can help me out since you are in the shoe repair business. Do you see the white spot at the area of my little toe? It has a hole in it. My little toe goes right through it makes it very uncomfortable. Is it repairable? What would your honest advise be?

View attachment 1035863

View attachment 1035864

Yes, I see the white spot. Quite frankly I don't see a hole where your toe could fit through. If that were the case when you pull your foot out of the shoe the "hole" would show itself by, sort of, curling back the lining leather around the hole making it very obvious. Let's just say I can't make out the hole from the picture but, it's there. A competent cobbler could easily patch it. They would cut out a piece of leather larger than the damaged area, skive out the edges just like Belos showed in a certain segment of the video you provided and cement it in it's proper place. The skive does two things:
1. It allows your foot to be inserted into the shoe without an edge that could roll back.
2. It eliminates the edge of the patch that very possibly can irritate your toe even causing chaffing of your skin. Worse a blister.

To go a step further....As I said, I didn't see a hole but what I noticed was several light (off-white) areas in the linings where the color wore out in stressed areas. From my experience, some customers equate such experiences as inferior material being used. That's not necessarily the case regardless of what you read on forums. For example...Louboutin famously uses a red sole. That's their status symbol to a point that they went to court in order to protect it. All that red sole is, is a leather sole painted red! Customers spend a premium buying their shoes (which IMO are far from a fair value). They come in thinking that the red wore out after one -or- two wearings, also thinking the material used on the sole is inferior. That's not the case, it's simply that the paint wore off after minimal use. They even make red sole guards that match the LB color in order to preserve "the look".

From my experience Carmina is an excellent "value".

So, to answer your question, yes what you showed can be fixed and, it's not that big a deal.
I would also like to add....You mentioned that you have several pairs of Carmina's many of which you are not happy with the liners. As I explained the finish color in the more stressed areas can wear out. However, Are you sure that you are being fitted properly?

 

[vmss]

Yes, I see the white spot. Quite frankly I don't see a hole where your toe could fit through. If that were the case when you pull your foot out of the shoe the "hole" would show itself by, sort of, curling back the lining leather around the hole making it very obvious. Let's just say I can't make out the hole from the picture but, it's there. A competent cobbler could easily patch it. They would cut out a piece of leather larger than the damaged area, skive out the edges just like Belos showed in a certain segment of the video you provided and cement it in it's proper place. The skive does two things:
1. It allows your foot to be inserted into the shoe without an edge that could roll back.
2. It eliminates the edge of the patch that very possibly can irritate your toe even causing chaffing of your skin. Worse a blister.

To go a step further....As I said, I didn't see a hole but what I noticed was several light (off-white) areas in the linings where the color wore out in stressed areas. From my experience, some customers equate such experiences as inferior material being used. That's not necessarily the case regardless of what you read on forums. For example...Louboutin famously uses a red sole. That's their status symbol to a point that they went to court in order to protect it. All that red sole is, is a leather sole painted red! Customers spend a premium buying their shoes (which IMO are far from a fair value). They come in thinking that the red wore out after one -or- two wearings, also thinking the material used on the sole is inferior. That's not the case, it's simply that the paint wore off after minimal use. They even make red sole guards that match the LB color in order to preserve "the look".

From my experience Carmina is an excellent "value".

So, to answer your question, yes what you showed can be fixed and, it's not that big a deal.
I would also like to add....You mentioned that you have several pairs of Carmina's many of which you are not happy with the liners. As I explained the finish color in the more stressed areas can wear out. However, Are you sure that you are being fitted properly?

I made another close up pic. Very difficult to get my phone in the shoe. I tried my best there is a hole.

I understand the stress part where the color wears out, but with my carmina where the color wears out its lot thinner; the abbreviated areas will sooner than later have a hole. It looks like you are trying defend Carmina rather than acknowledging the problem here. I don't need to keep hearing how Carmina is an excellent value. I get that. That has been their selling point since I joined styleforum. They market themselves as best value brand in the mid tier segment. I am not bashing Carmina, however, paying thousands of dollars for the multiple pairs I have; I am kinda dissappointed in the quality of the linings. My allen edmonds fifth avenue a lower budget brand are still going strong personally like their brown linings a lot. Handwelted makers vass and bonafe linings top notch in my personal experience. I can truly see the difference of quality when compared with my other brands.
I have noticed when confronted with evidence of gemming failure in the past and now in this case deterioration of my linings you constantly deny that it almost never happens in your experience while there is enough evidence to show for it. It would be a lot better to accept the truth and have a decent discussion about it rather than ignoring the facts.
Please visit this page where another member posted his concerns about the holes in his linings. These are far worst than mine:
https://www.styleforum.net/threads/...ad-reviews-advice-sizing-etc.241469/page-1541

 

[Nick V.]

I made another close up pic. Very difficult to get my phone in the shoe. I tried my best there is a hole.

I understand the stress part where the color wears out, but with my carmina where the color wears out its lot thinner; the abbreviated areas will sooner than later have a hole. It looks like you are trying defend Carmina rather than acknowledging the problem here. I don't need to keep hearing how Carmina is an excellent value. I get that. That has been their selling point since I joined styleforum. They market themselves as best value brand in the mid tier segment. I am not bashing Carmina, however, paying thousands of dollars for the multiple pairs I have; I am kinda dissappointed in the quality of the linings. My allen edmonds fifth avenue a lower budget brand are still going strong personally like their brown linings a lot. Handwelted makers vass and bonafe linings top notch in my personal experience. I can truly see the difference of quality when compared with my other brands.
I have noticed when confronted with evidence of gemming failure in the past and now in this case deterioration of my linings you constantly deny that it almost never happens in your experience while there is enough evidence to show for it. It would be a lot better to accept the truth and have a decent discussion about it rather than ignoring the facts.
Please visit this page where another member posted his concerns about the holes in his linings. These are far worst than mine:
https://www.styleforum.net/threads/...ad-reviews-advice-sizing-etc.241469/page-1541

Okay, there is a hole (****). Doesn't change the fact that it can be patched as I explained. No big deal. I have no skin the game by "defending" Carmina. Rather I take offence on this comment:
It looks like you are trying defend Carmina rather than acknowledging the problem here.
For the record that's not the case.
I don't understand why you KEEP buying Carmina's if you are not happy with them. You have said several times that you are not intending to "bash" (whatever) them. But, you do. I'm thinking "troll" at this point. Maybe I'm late to that game.
Good for you, you posted a BS video about somebody saying something about AE using wooden shanks. False.
Great, I'd love to have a beer and some bite's with you if you can manage yourself to NYC. I'm sure I can weed you out.
I'll ask again, do you have ANY Bespoke shoes that were made for you?

 

[SimonC]

@vmss, maybe Nick isn’t being blunt enough. If your foot is rubbing like that, it’s not a quality issue. It’s a fit issue.

Any leather will be abraded by your sock rubbing on it over time. Just that in a well-fitting shoe this doesn’t happen.

 

[JoeBlack0]

@vmss, maybe Nick isn’t being blunt enough. If your foot is rubbing like that, it’s not a quality issue. It’s a fit issue.

Any leather will be abraded by your sock rubbing on it over time. Just that in a well-fitting shoe this doesn’t happen.

I can understand there is reasonable doubt in this case due to the excessive rubbing of the pinky. However I think Vmms could have a point here since I have a similar problem in the heel. These shoes fit me pretty well and have been worn 1-2 a week during less than 3 years and the lining is wearing off.

 

[vmss]

"Rather I take offence on this comment:
It looks like you are trying defend Carmina rather than acknowledging the problem here." I'm am sorry. Its not my intention to insult you. By the way these are my best fitted Carmina ball to heel etc. And again what about the pics on the carmina thread? What about the state of the linings of the other shoes far worse then mine?

"I don't understand why you KEEP buying Carmina's if you are not happy with them. " who said I kept buying them? I stopped buying them two years ago. Also to be more specific I stopped buying gyw altogether. I am only buying if needed handwelted shoes and sooner then later bespoke.

"But, you do. "
No I don't. I am bashing the poor quality linings they are using for their shoes. I have heard this opinion from fellow members that the linings are indeed of poorer quality.

"Good for you, you posted a BS video about somebody saying something about AE using wooden shanks. False." So now you are discrediting another shoe repair store that resoled many many pairs of AE? I dont know if truly AE stop using wooden shanks. Tell you the truth dont care either if they do or dont. Dont get the point you are trying to make here. I heard rumors they start using a while ago, but again dont care if they do or dont. Here is another resole of AE with wooden shanks. Take a look at the pics. It seems again here that this pair also uses wooden shanks.

"I'll ask again, do you have ANY Bespoke shoes that were made for you?" Thats the plan doing my homework

 

[vmss]

@DWFII what is your opinion about the linings? Is it fit or quality? Would like to know your opinion.

 

[DWFII]

@DWFII what is your opinion about the linings? Would like to know your opinion.

It's hard to tell anything definitive from a photo but I have looked closely at posts #2495, #2495 and #2499. To my eye, they do not necessarily indicate a poor fit.

Rather, they both illustrate poor quality leather. In the photos you posted, @vmss , I see a very loose fiber matrix, as if the linings had been cut from the belly or neck--offal, in other words. And the purple finish is just a paint job that sits on the very surface of the leather. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this leather had been snuffed (sanded) to the point where what grain was originally present has been largely or wholly removed.

As for the other photo posted by @JoeBlack0 , again the leather is poor quality and looks to come from marginal areas of the hide. It also looks thinner than I would choose for a lining.

Worse, it appears that the lining was never glued to the heel stiffener. I am speculating on that, but the lining should not sag or "bunch up" in the heel area--and the sagging, and the concomitant pipes and wrinkles, have contributed significantly to the wear. (I'm surprised the owner could wear them without getting a blister.)

Traditionally and "Best Practices" the heels stiffener and the flesh side of the lining (as well as the flesh side of the rear quarters) would be given a liberal coating of paste before lasting to ensure that the lining, the heel stiffener, and the upper were all bonded together. And since in a decent fitting shoe...one that could be worn with any comfort...the heel of the foot is held firmly back into the heel of the shoe, there shouldn't be enough "play" or movement to cause this abrasion, unless the owner is wearing sandpaper socks.

All this illustrates what the previous several pages of this thread has been exploring--Grades of Leather and where components are cut--post #2444

 

[Nick V.]

"Rather I take offence on this comment:
It looks like you are trying defend Carmina rather than acknowledging the problem here." I'm am sorry. Its not my intention to insult you. By the way these are my best fitted Carmina ball to heel etc. And again what about the pics on the carmina thread? What about the state of the linings of the other shoes far worse then mine?

"I don't understand why you KEEP buying Carmina's if you are not happy with them. " who said I kept buying them? I stopped buying them two years ago. Also to be more specific I stopped buying gyw altogether. I am only buying if needed handwelted shoes and sooner then later bespoke.

"But, you do. "
No I don't. I am bashing the poor quality linings they are using for their shoes. I have heard this opinion from fellow members that the linings are indeed of poorer quality.

"Good for you, you posted a BS video about somebody saying something about AE using wooden shanks. False." So now you are discrediting another shoe repair store that resoled many many pairs of AE? I dont know if truly AE stop using wooden shanks. Tell you the truth dont care either of they do or dont. Dont get the point you are trying to make here. I heard rumore they start using a while ago, but qgain dont care of they do or dont. Here is another resole of AE with wooden shanks. Take a look at the pics. It seems again here that this pair also uses wooden shanks.

"I'll ask again, do you have ANY Bespoke shoes that were made for you?" Thats the plan doing my homework

You need a back liner. Nothing more-nothing less. I see it all the time. Not specific to Carmina. It happens on Lobbs, Weston's it's common to a shoe repair shop. The same thing could happen on a HW shoe. But, if that what's you are happy with, great! Personally, if I thought I had a legit. complaint, I'd take it up with the maker. But, that's just me.....
You say that you don't care about AE using wooden shanks but, you care enough about it to make a point of it. Without going out on a limb I'd venture to say I've had more AE's in my shop than anybody reading -or- even mentioned on SF. I asked the guys in the shop and called AE. They don't use wooden shanks. I don't recall you asking if I ever had a pair of Bespoke shoes made. There was a video made a while back that I posted regarding the definition of "true" Bespoke. In that sense no, I have not. However, I can easily have may guys make me a pair of custom made shoes. I just don't have the need for them. So, why? But if you are interested I'll post pictures of some of the shoes they made. I'll be away for a few days but can do that when I get back.

 

[vmss]

You are really showing how naive you are here. I know some people in the Carmina family. I can tell you that they are seriously concerned with delivering the best possible product at a price-point that they deem. At they're price-point they are an excellent value. If someone posted a rare failure is no reason to take an approach that they are inferior. Did they contact the company? Could such (any) defect happen on a Bespoke shoe? If so, would you give the maker a chance to correct the problem before you posted it on-line?
I think I also read that you mentioned a reputable repair person told you that 6 out of 10 AE shoes have damaged shanks that need to be replaced. Somehow that claim disappeared. please explain....

"You say that you don't care about AE using wooden shanks but, you care enough about it to make a point of it."

No, I never mentioned anything about wooden shanks in AE. You assumed that I made that statement about AE shanks, while it was the cobbler in the video that mentioned AE wooden shanks. I never mentioned anything about shanks. Since you brought this up I gave you a response. You made an issue about shanks not me. That is why I repeatedly said that I did not care if AE uses shanks or not. I never made a big deal out of it.

 

[Munky]

Easy, tigers...play nicely. We don't want it all to end in tears.