Leather Quality and Properties

[clee1982]

I agree that it borders on propaganda. As does much of this kind of information to be found on the Internet--it's fundamentally self-promotional. If the website serving up this information were making leather products out of chrome tanned leathers rather than veg, I suspect that the conclusions would be very different.

That said, I do feel compelled to point out that while organic doesn't equal safe...or more specifically, environmentally safe...the environment is much more capable of dealing with such products--run-offs, etc., than chemicals that never existed in free form.

Trees have been falling in the forest for thousands of millennia. And rain has come down and pools of standing water laden with bark, leaves and leeched out tannins (the active agent in vegetable leather tanning) have been created. One can imagine such pools of water all over the world even as we speak.

Some of it undoubtedly gets into the ground water. No harm no foul. It's not even unsafe to drink. And in fact, scientist are beginning to recognize the importance of tannins in the natural cycle.

Every ancient peat bog is essentially a tannery, and I suspect the very idea of tanning animal skins with bark came from what our distant ancestors observed occasionally happened to creatures that died in close proximity.

Natural tannins are not necessarily toxic. The British love their tea--relatively high in tannins. Red wine has a certain amount of tannins. Some cheeses and nuts, as well. Tannins are good antioxidants. And they are used commercially in processed foods as flavour enhancers and preservatives.

And while not recommended, desperate shipwrecked sailors in a time when all shoes were made of vegetable tanned leather, have on occasion resorted to eating their shoes...without immediate ill or fatal effects...don't try that with chrome tans.

Don't get me wrong, I agree--it's not cut and dried...they're different products (with the same purpose). But having said that, if veg tans were as flexible and could be dyed in bright colours, etc., I, personally, would never make another pair of shoes or boots out of chrome tanned leather.

But that's just me.

I think there is a difference in nature doing it vs. men doing it in industrial scale even if it's the same process (and by industrial I just mean take what natural does, multiply by 10,000x...), don't disagree with what you said, just when you scale up natural process it's not really the same thing.

 

[ecwy]

All that said, demand drives the market---people want the advantages--flexibility, colours, etc., that chrome offers. Somewhere in the back of our collective consciousness we all know chrome tans are toxic to the environment and so forth, yet the market is driven by what attracts the eye, is available right now and is cheap. Quality ain't in it.

Isn't most of the "fine" calf leather used for shoe uppers chrome tanned? Such as Annonay Vocalou. I don't think you would call a 200-300 EUR per hide price cheap...

I had the impression most veg tan leather would be rather stiff and not suitable for uppers.

Thanks

 

[DWFII]

Isn't most of the "fine" calf leather used for shoe uppers chrome tanned? Such as Annonay Vocalou. I don't think you would call a 200-300 EUR per hide price cheap...

I had the impression most veg tan leather would be rather stiff and not suitable for uppers.

Thanks

I suspect that the reason most upper leathers are chrome tan is that, again, they can be dyed and finished in brighter, truer colours than most vegetable tannages.

As far as being stiffer and unsuitable...consider that once upon a time all shoes were made entirely of vegetable tanned leather. Chrome tanning wasn't invented until the mid to late 19th century*.

So obviously veg tans have been, and are still, suitable for footwear and shoes. Again, AFAIK, most crust--an upper leather favoured by really high end makers esp. in Italy, is veg tanned. And most high end makers use vegetable tanned linings...which isn't too different in functionality to upper leather.

Then too, even a very stiff English Lining kip, for example...and by extension any vegetable tanned leather in a suitable weight...can be "milled" to produce a very soft hand.

Beyond that, vegetable tanned...or at least chrome free...leathers have come a long way in recent years. Ecopell in Germany produces a chrome free vegetable tanned leather using tara and valonea and rhubarb. And the results can be dyed in bright colours. Ironically, Ecopell leathers are actually a little too soft for my liking, esp. for a dress shoe.

*although as @ntempleman pointed out, alum tanning--another form of metallic salt--AKA tawing, has been used for hundreds and hundreds of years. Since the 8th century, at least. The original Cordovan...derived from the city of Cordoba...was a tawed leather.

 

[dieworkwear]

What kind of tannage is Donald Trump's face?

 

[ntempleman]

You need a finely ground compound of Vegetable oil, whey, milk, cheese cultures, salt, canola oil, maltodextrin, salt, whey protein concentrate, monosodium glutamate, lactic acid, citric acid and finally more salt

 

[dieworkwear]

You need a finely ground compound of Vegetable oil, whey, milk, cheese cultures, salt, canola oil, maltodextrin, salt, whey protein concentrate, monosodium glutamate, lactic acid, citric acid and finally more salt

This sounds delicious.

 

[ntempleman]

It is! I can sell you a bag for a reasonable price

 

[beargonefishing]

What kind of tannage is Donald Trump's face?

I assume it is identical to Russian calf mixed with Tang(TM).

 

[DWFII]

And FWIW, there is such a thing as organic Wet White tanning agents, which, from what I can determine, result in a firm white leather, suitable, after dying and finishing for dress shoes, and with no toxic chemicals or effluent...

"only toxicologically uncritical substances are used or generated. The leather, shavings and effluent contain no reactive tanning materials. Furthermore, no pickling is required. This results in a significant reduction of the salt load in the effluent."

 

[ecwy]

I suspect that the reason most upper leathers are chrome tan is that, again, they can be dyed and finished in brighter, truer colours than most vegetable tannages.

As far as being stiffer and unsuitable...consider that once upon a time all shoes were made entirely of vegetable tanned leather. Chrome tanning wasn't invented until the mid to late 19th century*.

So obviously veg tans have been, and are still, suitable for footwear and shoes. Again, AFAIK, most crust--an upper leather favoured by really high end makers esp. in Italy, is veg tanned. And most high end makers use vegetable tanned linings...which isn't too different in functionality to upper leather.

Then too, even a very stiff English Lining kip, for example...and by extension any vegetable tanned leather in a suitable weight...can be "milled" to produce a very soft hand.

Beyond that, vegetable tanned...or at least chrome free...leathers have come a long way in recent years. Ecopell in Germany produces a chrome free vegetable tanned leather using tara and valonea and rhubarb. And the results can be dyed in bright colours. Ironically, Ecopell leathers are actually a little too soft for my liking, esp. for a dress shoe.

*although as @ntempleman pointed out, alum tanning--another form of metallic salt--AKA tawing, has been used for hundreds and hundreds of years. Since the 8th century, at least. The original Cordovan...derived from the city of Cordoba...was a tawed leather.

Thanks DWF!

Actually, I prefer a firmer hand to the leather. I was presented Du Puy and Zonta as choices by a maker and personally found the Du Puy samples too soft for my liking.

I should look into veg tan options for potential future orders. On the other hand, I am not really into crust and would rather much have a consistent colour which would seemingly point me towards chrome tanned...

 

[DWFII]

Thanks DWF!

Actually, I prefer a firmer hand to the leather. I was presented Du Puy and Zonta as choices by a maker and personally found the Du Puy samples too soft for my liking.

I should look into veg tan options for potential future orders. On the other hand, I am not really into crust and would rather much have a consistent colour which would seemingly point me towards chrome tanned...

Esp. from modern tanneries, there's not much (beyond the philosophical and perhaps incidentally environmental impications) reason to avoid the chrome tans.

That said and FWIW...crusts can be dyed such that, aside from any superimposed patinization, the colour is even. I got to talking to Tony at A.A. Crack some time ago about his Burnishable Baby Calf and came away with the notion that it was essentially dyed crust.

And Pergamena here in the States produces something very similar--veg, dyed (very evenly), naked grain and burnishable.

And having said that...while crusts are, by definition, naked grain, veg tans don't necessarily have to be. I have made a number of pairs of shoes and boots that were veg tanned but would be hard to distinguish from a chrome tanned calf. Veg tanned can be glazed with rollers (like the old Bombe croc) or with acrylic finishes just like chrome.

 

[AlonsoMerino]

Hello,

I was wondering if there is a way to tell the grade of the leather from most commercial shoes, for instance in a Frye, Allen Edmonds or Cole Haan? Is this information available or if not how can one tell?

 

[ntempleman]

It really doesn’t matter in the slightest

 

[Taverner.cohen]

Does anyone know what cream I can use for Crust leather? I am concerned that Dark brown Saphir 1925 could have any substance that could break up the shoe color, thanks in advance

 

[shoesforever]

@Taverner.cohen Haven't tried myself, but people here seem to recommend Bick 4:

https://www.skoaktiebolaget.com/collections/shoe-care/products/bick-4