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Leather or rubber soles?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by nordicstyle, Feb 3, 2009.

  1. skeen7908

    skeen7908 Senior member

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    Where were you to cast shame when this was posted?




    Perhaps you might ask RogerP what his qualification in psychoanalysis are as well?

    I am not disgustingly abusive. I am giving back what this internet tough guy likes to dish out. I cannot stand bullies in any form.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  2. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Thank you skeen. The above says far more about you than it does about me. I know you don't understand that, but it does.
     
  3. skeen7908

    skeen7908 Senior member

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    I don't even know what that means.

    Did I strike a nerve?
     
  4. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    1) Of course you don't.
    2) Yes - my funny bone. [​IMG] Watching you chuck stones in your glass house is highly amusing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  5. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Exactly what I was thinking. Not atypical, however.


    Talk about the kettle calling the pot...if you're going to kibitz at least be thorough. Shame on you!

    The fact is...as I see it...there are people on this forum who lie in wait, looking for an opportunity to jump in with snide and derisive and contrary remarks, simply for the sake of being contrary. Not because they have any real knowledge, and certainly not because they've ever gotten their hands dirty. In another time we would have called these people gadflies. Today we call them trolls. It doesn't make any difference how many posts you have...if you're sitting under the bridge, jumping out to collect a toll anytime you hear a footstep above, you're a troll.

    It's one thing to have an opinion...even if it's based on smug, self-satisfied speculation...it's another to get into a conversation and present those opinions as anything but speculation. And as in the case of our inestimable Mr. R. P. Rabbit, it's not only argument for the sake of argument, it's disrespectful to every person posting to not contribute one iota of constructive and objectively fact-based evidence to support your position...and then have the temerity to call out someone else for not contributing. It says "my opinion is better than your knowledge and what's more I don't have to explain or justify it." True enough, but it's still not just ignorant, it's arrogant.

    Mr. Rabbit is simply reaping what he has sowed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  6. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    ^^^ And you complaining about snide and derisive commentary is even more hilarious than skeen. [​IMG] Thanks for the chuckle - looks like a reaped some pretty good comedy.
     
  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Anyone can go back to post #44 and see where I started and the tone I began with and see how you responded and then judge for themselves how it all came down.

    And, FWIW, from where I stand your laughter sounds more like barking.

    BTW, you're not the only contrarian on this forum but I am gratified to see that you recognize your own image when you see it. Dogs can't do that.

    PS...I don't mind being questioned--look through all my posts, even in this thread...when people question me for the purpose of understanding or learning, I readily and respectfully answer. Every time.

    But you're half right--I don't like being questioned by ignoramuses.

    --
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  8. nh10222

    nh10222 Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear, at this rate the thread is going to be closed. Thanks for the shoe-related chat while it lasted lol...
     
  9. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Thanks DWFIII - the laughs just keep on coming - dogs, pigs - good stuff my man!

    Thank you nh - very good contributions throughout.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  10. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Point taken...
     
  11. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    That is equally offensive. My apologies!

    I hadn't seen that, as I find the topic as boring as can be. I rather prefer a walking shoe for rough terrain with a profile-rubber sole to the hobnailed leather soles that were in use prior to the invention of the rubber sole. Equally I prefer a shoe for town to have leather soles (unless it's raining cats and dogs).

    As I said before "Horses for courses" and I really cannot be worked-up about that topic.

    Blame should go to those three or four individuals who have managed to inflame an old thread, which had been dormant for more than four years, with stupid generalisations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  12. nh10222

    nh10222 Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't hurt to revisit the fundamentals every now and then, to review our purchasing habits and boost our knowledge and understanding. I've certainly learnt more about shoes in the process, even if others feel the matter has been thrashed to death or don't think it's worthy of further discussion. Leather versus rubber is an issue that will not go away. I just ignore the parts that I think are irrelevant or boring and try to stay out of the nastiness that can erupt.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  13. venividivicibj

    venividivicibj Senior member

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    The thread isn't about fundamentals anymore. It's about one person attacking a recognized expert in the field just because he had an experience that was contrary to the stated facts.

    Using an anecdote is a terrible way to prove an argument. It's a basic logical fallacy. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't prove the whole argument is false.

    Anyway, DFW's main point was that leather has advantages, and over time, they will come out. Maybe not right away, maybe not every time, but generally they will happen.

    Now it's just an argument that is rather disgusting and petty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  14. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    There is no question that there has been more sniping on my part than was called for. But suggesting that I have been the only one doing so is just willful blindness on your part. And DWF and his faithful supporters getting on their high horse to call me a great big meanie is truly rich. And whining that "But, but... he STARTED IT!" has an unfortunately appropriate grade 4 ring to it. The very first post by DWF in response to my statement that I had experienced none of his claimed pitfalls was to state that he had been doing this for 40 years and what I had to say didn't matter.

    I stand behind my challenge to DWFs assertion that synthetic outsoles create such palplable risk of footwear mahem. It is absolutely unfounded. It is unsupported by either industry practices or customer experiences. It makes no sense. If that is an "attack" in your books, so be it. I can live with that. Really.

    Ron's post said it best - I don't need to add to that. It was spot on. And he knows something about the industry, even if you wish to accept that no-one outside the ranks of industry professionals has the right to hold or express and opnion, he certainly qualifies as a contributor on the subject.
     
  15. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DWFII [​IMG]


    And, FWIW, from where I stand your laughter sounds more like barking.

    BTW, you're not the only contrarian on this forum but I am gratified to see that you recognize your own image when you see it. Dogs can't do that.

    But you're half right--I don't like being questioned by ignoramuses.

    --
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  16. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    That's a big issue on every forum I post to. All the "old-timers" have long since thrashed most of these issues out...even if in the absence of real knowledge...come to a consensus and consider the matter closed. Newbies or people who weren't in on the original discussions are dismissed and/or subtly pressured to conform or go fish.

    When some of these issue are raised by newcomers, if the old guard decide to join the conversation at all it is to tell everyone that the issue is boring, inconsequential, and disruptive. Worse these folks seldom actually follow a thread with the intent to contribute something meaningful. They simply kibitz and snipe. As I said, not "atypical"--meaning that this is the modus operandi of some folks here on this forum.

    They are as much to blame for a thread going off topic as the people who are actively arguing.

    Every person who asks me a legitimate question is ignorant...of some aspect of the issue. That's why they ask. I said in this thread (and many others) that there is no harm nor foul in being ignorant. We are all ignorant about something [which is why I so seldom post to any other topic...I am ignorant of those issues and I recognize that fact].

    The onus comes from being confronted with information that comes from a relatively, but objectively, more experienced or reliable source and refusing to acknowledge or learn from it--choosing to remain ignorant, in fact.

    It bears repeating: "willful ignorance is the surest path to stupidity."

    And when a person is confronted with massively corroborating evidence from multiple sources (#post 95) and deliberately chooses to ignore every single point...to focus instead on one short, incidental paragraph/quotation addressing the universal frustration of dealing with people who choose to dismiss objective information (where ever it is to be found)...it seems suspiciously clear to me that the choice between ignorance/stupidity versus understanding has long since been made.

    Most of what is quoted in the last post, is in fact, what I said. You can trace the increasing frustration in my responses--from post #44 onward--no doubt. What has been redacted is the snide, escalating disrespect and derision that I was responding to. And there is a history there that goes beyond this thread...this isn't a video game where you can anonymously take unlooked-for pot shots at people and live to start over.

    So...no apologies. A great deal of what I said related to ignorance...not to beat a dead horse--lack of knowledge, lack of experience...and is simple fact. And I not only stand by most those remarks I reiterate them.

    --
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  17. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    And yes, it does matter who started it. Simply because my motto is that if you treat me with respect, I'll treat you with respect. Irrespective of what we do or know.

    Most people start from there. Some deliberately...again it's a choice...choose to instigate. For no apparent reason or constructive gain. They are getting what they asked for.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  18. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Agree completely. It's a shame that some feel they are entitled to dictate content to others and to proclaim on behalf of all what is or is not worthy of discussion. A shame, but not the least bit surprising. If you don't find a topic worthy of discussion, move on. Nobody is forcing you to participate. And if a topic is not in fact worthy of discussion - it will die a natural death quite quickly in any event.
     
  19. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Edit - so not worth it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  20. dbhdnhdbh

    dbhdnhdbh Senior member

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    Hoping to keep this thread alive by getting back to shoes.

    I gather GY construction creates a space between the insole and the outsole that must be filled with something. It seems that cork, either a solid piece or a slurry of cork fragments, is the most common. DWF seemed to imply that filling the cavity with a solid piece of leather would be better. Did I understand correctly on this?

    Cork compresses down, or moves away, to nothing. But isn't this what you want? When freshly made, the cork provides a bit of cushioning while the footbed gets imprinted with the wearer's feet. Once the sock liner and insole have adapted to those pressure points, the cork has done its job. Since it is so compressible, eventually wouldn't you reach the point that the insole was in contact with the outsole? From there, it could not conform more.

    If you used a piece of solid leather, would you have less cushioning at first, and a more limited ability to conform the footbed? The leather would provide more resistance,and the insole could never go as far as to touch the outsole? The leather would be a lot tougher than the cork, but is this desirable?

    Obviously, I am making this up, but can someone explain the differences in how shoes would wear using cork vs solid leather in this gap? Is one better than the other? Neither approach would appear to be particularly challenging to do, or expensive. I suppose painting in the cork slurry might be the easiest and fastest maneuver, but not by much. When resoling shoes, could one just ask the cobbler to use leather rather than cork? Would this make any sense?

    With handwelted, is there no space at all? Or just a narrower gap between insole and outsole than with GY?

    For either handwelted or GY, does the inside of the outsole conform in any way to the wearer's foot, or is the leather too inflexible for that?

    Thanks
     

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