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LA Guy

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Fair enough. Curious to hear what makes the CCP jacket so great? No shots, just genuinely curious. I hadn't heard of them until just now.
I don't think we can really compare TOA jackets to CCP. CCP is more of a mad scientist experimentation on clothing and is on what people would consider on the avant-garde side of things.
 

sinnedk

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Fair enough. Curious to hear what makes the CCP jacket so great? No shots, just genuinely curious. I hadn't heard of them until just now.
CCP is a small avant- grade maker that object dyes their leather jackets and its handmade in a small studio. Jacket has top notch materials and stitching.

Look into the following to get a sense:
Rick Owens (his quality has been up and down a bit but he has some of the best designs)
BBS
Backlash
Incarnation
 

ThreadsofApollo

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CCP is a small avant- grade maker that object dyes their leather jackets and its handmade in a small studio. Jacket has top notch materials and stitching.

Look into the following to get a sense:
Rick Owens (his quality has been up and down a bit but he has some of the best designs)
BBS
Backlash
Incarnation
Thanks for the list! I'll be sure to check these brands out (Rich k Owens is the only one I am aware of) And very cool to hear regarding CCP and what they do. I was looking into them a bit more just now and they seem to indeed develop very unique styles. I can see why they like to object dye the jackets (maintain that rugged leather look). Makes sense why LA Guy has one!
 

d4nimal

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Hi there,

I'm here so can you let me know exactly what you "didn't get". I don't recall the particular thread, however, I think for a more accurate representation of our leather jackets look, you can check out the website and I can answer questions as well. Currently, all our jackets are semi-aniline with minimal finishing/coating thus giving it a more natural look and feel them.

We actually don't "cut out the middleman", we work side by side with our production facility. We are one and the same. Along with offering fair pricing, we offer premium quality jackets, utility, have developed an in-house water-repellent solution to keep the jackets safe in heavy rain and snow (which lasts a lifetime) as well as emphasize lowering our impact with regards to wastage.

And yes we are constantly improving our fit, designing amongst other things.

We offer quite a bit of value and work pretty damn hard to do so.
I don't like the "designer quality without designer pricing" selling point either. (Edit - I see that this was a point of confusion that ToA just addressed - they work with their producers.)

That said, I have a sample here, and while it's not the very top of the line, it corresponds pretty well to brands like Schott at a lower orice. The hardware is decent - standard chrome YKK 10s for the front, and 5s for sleeve and pockets. The stitching is even, stitch density is good for the leather type, and at least in the sample that i have on hand, the panels are well matched. There are a few nitpicking things, like the belt straps. Te ends are not rolled and then stitched down, pften with a row of bar stitching or hidden stitching, depending on the style, like the are on the higher end jackets. That would have given the jackets a more polished, finished feeling (and also prevents any unravelling)

I normally don't ask potential affiliate vendors for a sample to inspect, but the $250 price had me wondering. I wanted to be sure that the quality met a minimum standard. I would say that I've seen plenty of jackets in the $500-$750 range that are not as well done. I am not sure how they bring the price in, but I imagine that if they started to do say, brand name leathers that would actually add to the jacket, that they would need to increase prices, probably to the $500 mark, to make their margins, especially since they would need to import the leathers, and probably buy in small quantities.
You may not remember my post, but here was the reply when you asked what I thought was a decent racer and my general impressions (from about a year ago on reddit):

["Schott is the most obvious example, esp for entry level jackets. However, they're priced higher than you are and tend to use more cowhide than lamb. They also lean more design-wise into the minimal cafe racer style (band collar, no quilting/padding, one chest pocket, maybe some side slash pockets) like so. Your pattern is more similar to something like Belstaff is known for, or Lewis Leathers, with quilted shoulders etc. Those are both above your price point, but surprisingly not that far if on deep sale like FMF is known to find or secondhand. Lucky Brand had their Schott models $300s on sale, as I believe Urban Outfitters earlier this year. Used Aero and Vanson are also not that much more expensive if you can just be patient and spend time looking for something of value.

But at <$300 MSRP, we're really talking about mall jackets you're competing with. And no one is going to have really good materials at this price point. Construction will be "good enough." That's fine. But your fits are way off. Way off. That's my major issue with the jackets. The shoulders are probably a full inch wide on each side and much too square. The bodies are very square and boxy, but not in a cool Lemaire thoughtful kind of way. The armholes look a touch big, but that's probably to accomodate a large range of sizes - it may just look worse because of the extended shoulders. You want your sheepskin to fit something like this, but we're at this place (links didn't copy over from Reddit). As a slight tangent, I hate the removable hood. Poll 100 guys and ask them if they want a removable hood in their cafe racer. Those kind of poor choices are also a big red flag to me.

So I see all these things put together, and they all add up to Design - Poor. Materials - Fine. Fit - Poor.

From a leather jacket from a major chain on sale (your price point) you will usually get Design - Mediocre. Materials - Fine. Fit - Mediocre to good."]


Again, I understand that products may have improved somewhat (designs look a little better now and fits improved), but to me, they just look like what $250 jackets looks like. And not long ago, even less than what I would expect of a jacket in that range.

5d2a38c3fcdeef2bf9f7afb86800a825_large.jpg

Previous shearling, from what I gather?

Shearling_Jacket_-_Prometheus_White_Fur_-_Main_-_Front_Openr_2048x.jpg
New shearling model on the site

Genuinely not trying to blow up anyone's spot here for the sake of it (you seem like a genuinely nice person), but a bunch of things like full grain leather/ykk zippers/waterproofing (weird flex, but ok) don't make a good jacket by virtue of the sum of the ingredients. Just my point of view, but at that price point if you're trying to demonstrate value, you should not be trying to reinvent/improve classic designs and adding random shit like zip on hoods or other pockets onto them, especially if you're not experienced enough to do so or correctly gauge things like conventional leather jacket fits.

51743192_674047766345253_8832957439474139136_n.jpg
older pic (year ago?)
BrowntoBlack1.1_2048x.jpg

Current site fit pic

If I'm alone in this I'll happily let this go. I don't even really want to spend time discussing it tbh, I just thought it would be contained to reddit FMF. Just rubs me the wrong way to read glowing reviews about how the leather is butter soft like that's some sort of standard and they're not sure if it fits but it's full grain leather, it's "held up" and only cost XXX so it must be worth it.

4816ecfc7dad13a866cf2afc392168a9_medium.jpg


When you're using buzzwords like "small batch production - each piece made to the highest quality," the pictures just don't correlate (you may say a lot of these are old pictures, but that's old copy to go along w/ them). How are these "minimalist jackets?" How do you say semi-aniline and "minimal finishing/coating" in the same breath? How is what you are describing not cutting out the middleman? Seems like you just said it again in different words.

All of this is what I "don't get" about what value you offer. You show me any of those jackets above and ask me where you got it, my guess is the mall or a flea market.

If I come off harsh or sound annoyed I'm sorry, but I feel like I shouldn't be having to go into detail, twice now, with someone who runs a leather jacket company about the above issues and the concept that full grain leather isn't some sort of secret password into leather nirvana. Especially in a place like Styleforum.

@LA Guy has always been a pretty good barometer of quality, though, so I'm willing to concede the product may have come a long long way based on his recent experience. I just don't see it.

Am I taking crazy pills or something?
 

LA Guy

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XWT

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@d4nimal hits the nail right on the head. The fact that these jackets are affordable don’t warrant judging their fit and design with more leeway, only their materials and construction.
 

ThreadsofApollo

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You may not remember my post, but here was the reply when you asked what I thought was a decent racer and my general impressions (from about a year ago on reddit):

["Schott is the most obvious example, esp for entry level jackets. However, they're priced higher than you are and tend to use more cowhide than lamb. They also lean more design-wise into the minimal cafe racer style (band collar, no quilting/padding, one chest pocket, maybe some side slash pockets) like so. Your pattern is more similar to something like Belstaff is known for, or Lewis Leathers, with quilted shoulders etc. Those are both above your price point, but surprisingly not that far if on deep sale like FMF is known to find or secondhand. Lucky Brand had their Schott models $300s on sale, as I believe Urban Outfitters earlier this year. Used Aero and Vanson are also not that much more expensive if you can just be patient and spend time looking for something of value.

But at <$300 MSRP, we're really talking about mall jackets you're competing with. And no one is going to have really good materials at this price point. Construction will be "good enough." That's fine. But your fits are way off. Way off. That's my major issue with the jackets. The shoulders are probably a full inch wide on each side and much too square. The bodies are very square and boxy, but not in a cool Lemaire thoughtful kind of way. The armholes look a touch big, but that's probably to accomodate a large range of sizes - it may just look worse because of the extended shoulders. You want your sheepskin to fit something like this, but we're at this place (links didn't copy over from Reddit). As a slight tangent, I hate the removable hood. Poll 100 guys and ask them if they want a removable hood in their cafe racer. Those kind of poor choices are also a big red flag to me.

So I see all these things put together, and they all add up to Design - Poor. Materials - Fine. Fit - Poor.

From a leather jacket from a major chain on sale (your price point) you will usually get Design - Mediocre. Materials - Fine. Fit - Mediocre to good."]


Again, I understand that products may have improved somewhat (designs look a little better now and fits improved), but to me, they just look like what $250 jackets looks like. And not long ago, even less than what I would expect of a jacket in that range.

View attachment 1628438
Previous shearling, from what I gather?

View attachment 1628441New shearling model on the site

Genuinely not trying to blow up anyone's spot here for the sake of it (you seem like a genuinely nice person), but a bunch of things like full grain leather/ykk zippers/waterproofing (weird flex, but ok) don't make a good jacket by virtue of the sum of the ingredients. Just my point of view, but at that price point if you're trying to demonstrate value, you should not be trying to reinvent/improve classic designs and adding random shit like zip on hoods or other pockets onto them, especially if you're not experienced enough to do so or correctly gauge things like conventional leather jacket fits.

View attachment 1628442
older pic (year ago?)
View attachment 1628443
Current site fit pic

If I'm alone in this I'll happily let this go. I don't even really want to spend time discussing it tbh, I just thought it would be contained to reddit FMF. Just rubs me the wrong way to read glowing reviews about how the leather is butter soft like that's some sort of standard and they're not sure if it fits but it's full grain leather, it's "held up" and only cost XXX so it must be worth it.

View attachment 1628447

When you're using buzzwords like "small batch production - each piece made to the highest quality," the pictures just don't correlate (you may say a lot of these are old pictures, but that's old copy to go along w/ them). How are these "minimalist jackets?" How do you say semi-aniline and "minimal finishing/coating" in the same breath? How is what you are describing not cutting out the middleman? Seems like you just said it again in different words.

All of this is what I "don't get" about what value you offer. You show me any of those jackets above and ask me where you got it, my guess is the mall or a flea market.

If I come off harsh or sound annoyed I'm sorry, but I feel like I shouldn't be having to go into detail, twice now, with someone who runs a leather jacket company about the above issues and the concept that full grain leather isn't some sort of secret password into leather nirvana. Especially in a place like Styleforum.

@LA Guy has always been a pretty good barometer of quality, though, so I'm willing to concede the product may have come a long long way based on his recent experience. I just don't see it.

Am I taking crazy pills or something?

I think my issue is, you don't only sound harsh or annoyed but your wording and how you present the information is taken as a personal attack since the brand is everything I have put into it. So, when you say stuff like:


"a bunch of things like full grain leather/ykk zippers/waterproofing (weird flex, but ok) don't make a good jacket by virtue of the sum of the ingredients. Just my point of view, but at that price point if you're trying to demonstrate value, you should not be trying to reinvent/improve classic designs and adding random shit like zip on hoods or other pockets onto them, especially if you're not experienced enough to do so or correctly gauge things like conventional leather jacket fits."

That is very insulting. Especially considering we have thoughtfully introduced these features over time and really have gone through many iterations to get the balance. The water-proofing of the jackets is something we are super proud of since it took literally 2 years to develop this in-house. Out utility is something we are extremely proud of having found the balance between design and utility. This is not only an insult to me but our production facility which has had over 30 years' experience in making leather jackets.

A lot of what you are reference, to me, sounds like personal preference especially with regards to the size. Which is your opinion and that is fine. Over the years, we have had many many many happy customers who have enjoyed and liked our jackets, their sizing, and what we offer.

Clearly, the brand isn't for you, which is fine. But please do not insult me with how you word things. I can take constructive criticism when it comes to sizing. This to me is more bashing and hating and truly insulting.
 

ThreadsofApollo

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@d4nimal hits the nail right on the head. The fact that these jackets are affordable don’t warrant judging their fit and design with more leeway, only their materials and construction.
Constructive criticism on sizing is fine. However, claiming these jackets are high quality or aren't worth more than $250 just because he doesn't like the fit is absurd.
 

LA Guy

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