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Law Without Suits: New Hires Flout Tradition [WSJ]

haganah

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Originally Posted by lawyerdad
+1 The "short term hires" comment bears no relationship to reality, either. Law firm associates succeed in their firms primarily through some combination of: diligence; quality of work; business generated or the perceived ability to generate business; and finding and making oneself essential to a mentor.
So basically lawyers never jump ship after a couple years as an Associate right? And they all know they will make partners right? Why don't we stick with the firm that I mentioned like Cravath for now since I can't imagine a firm where people show up in board shorts like you said.
 

whnay.

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Originally Posted by romafan
Good one! I know someone who had the audacity to show up for work at a small boutique brokerage house (this was back in the '80's) wearing a blue shirt, but otherwise impeccably dressed. His boss took one look at him and growled "You think you're in the f***in' air force?"
Now that is absolutely hilarious.
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by haganah
So basically lawyers never jump ship after a couple years as an Associate right? And they all know they will make partners right? Why don't we stick with the firm that I mentioned like Cravath for now since I can't imagine a firm where people show up in board shorts like you said.

Cravath is really kind of an oddity in the big law world, more the exception than the rule. Yes, they require business formal dress, but they also have a weird rotation system for young associates and don't take lateral hires.

Wearing board shorts is an extreme. I think I know the firm lawyerdad is talking about. These are big, prestigious firms. While you won't often see an NYC big law associate wearing cargo pants to work, he won't be in a suit 95% of the time. I actually think people at my firm dress relatively well within the business casual context, but it's still business casual.

The point I was making earlier was that I see less sloppiness resulting from business casual and more a self-imposed pseudo-hip 'Euro' dress code.

I edited my earlier post because I thought it was ridiculous to imply that 'breeding' has anything to do with lawyer culture today.
 

millionaire75

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Originally Posted by constant struggle
i wish work was either suits or casual
business casual is the worst... i feel i dress too sloppy within this category compared to wearing a suit or wearing jeans and a shirt/sweater/whatever...

working at a big financial institute it is really bad here as well


Very well said...very hard to look put together....
 

haganah

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Originally Posted by mafoofan
Cravath is really kind of an oddity in the big law world, more the exception than the rule. Yes, they require business formal dress, but they also have a weird rotation system for young associates and don't take lateral hires. Wearing board shorts is an extreme. I think I know the firm lawyerdad is talking about. These are big, prestigious firms. While you won't often see an NYC big law associate wearing cargo pants to work, he won't be in a suit 95% of the time. I actually think people at my firm dress relatively well within the business casual context, but it's still business casual. The point I was making earlier was that I see less sloppiness resulting from business casual and more a self-imposed pseudo-hip 'Euro' dress code. I edited my earlier post because I thought it was ridiculous to imply that 'breeding' has anything to do with lawyer culture today.
Well instead of side stepping my response, I'll re-emphasize my points for you: 1) I brought up my friend's experience at Cravath. 2) I never claimed to be a lawyer and indicated otherwise. 3) Culture plays a role at many firms and often takes away the worry about people that don't fit in and a lot of people that don't fit in, leave. In the law world, this seems to mesh with the Cravath experience.
 

JBZ

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Originally Posted by haganah
So basically lawyers never jump ship after a couple years as an Associate right? And they all know they will make partners right? Why don't we stick with the firm that I mentioned like Cravath for now since I can't imagine a firm where people show up in board shorts like you said.

Of course associates jump ship and do so often. However, the implication of your original post was that those who leave early do so due to a lack of breeding and/or because they are black sheep. It also can be inferred from the post that such associates are forced out rather than that they leave voluntarily.

The fact is, the majority of attorneys who begin working at a large law firm will not make partner. In my experience (and I worked at a large, national law firm for roughly 7 years), whether or not one makes partner at a large law firm has less to do with "breeding" and much more to do with hard work, good work, the ability to attract business, the willingness to forgo a social life whenever work requires, and, to a certain extent, dumb luck. Where most people fall down in this area is the willingness to put work above everything else in their lives (which may sound okay when you're 25 and single, but not so great when you're 32 and married with children). Most associates who choose to leave the large firm life do so long before they would be up for partnership.

There are a few who stay and then don't make it. They either leave at that time or stay in the hopes they will make partner eventually.

Getting back to dress codes, what the others here have said is true. Most major law firms have a business casual dress code. As I pointed out above, such firms generally have a dress policy outlined, which is meant to keep people looking professional, albeit casual.
 

lawyerdad

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Originally Posted by haganah
So basically lawyers never jump ship after a couple years as an Associate right? And they all know they will make partners right? Why don't we stick with the firm that I mentioned like Cravath for now since I can't imagine a firm where people show up in board shorts like you said.

Have you been taking debating lessons from dkzzz? Associates leave firms all the time. It's your hypothesis about of the cause of this turnover I took issue with.

I "jumped ship" about 18 months into my career. It had nothing to do with dress codes, "firm culture", or "breeding".

I'm not sure what point you want to stick to Cravath for. Cravath is, for better (in many ways) or worse (in many ways) sui generis. You made several broad assertions about law firms generally, which several of us with extensive experience in that field have refuted.

Saying you can't "imagine" certain facts doesn't change reality. The firm I was referring to is Quinn, Emmanuel. They're a real, and very successful, law firm.

Coincidentally, a few years ago some local tv news reporter was doing a puff piece on changing standards of business dress or some such. She interviewed two of my partners (one of whom also owned a high-end men's clothing boutique at the time) to get the more "pro-suit" perspective and someone from Quinn to get the "anti-suit" perspective.
 

jpb

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You should see what the women wear at Moscow law offices. An American friend of mine got so much cleavage in his face he actually threatened to sue his employer for creating a hostile environment. See-through tops and no bra are a regular in the summer. Most of the men dress fine, although the Russian's wear some crazy shoes. Ties are not insisted on, but jeans are not allowed.
 

haganah

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I did not qualify it with an "only". I do think a lot of people jump ship because of culture. Am I wrong about that? I guess my friends that did made it up. If what I said earlier sounded absolute, that is not what I meant so hopefully you can stop inferring now.
Originally Posted by JBZ
Of course associates jump ship and do so often. However, the implication of your original post was that those who leave early do so due to a lack of breeding and/or because they are black sheep. It also can be inferred from the post that such associates are forced out rather than that they leave voluntarily. The fact is, the majority of attorneys who begin working at a large law firm will not make partner. In my experience (and I worked at a large, national law firm for roughly 7 years), whether or not one makes partner at a large law firm has less to do with "breeding" and much more to do with hard work, good work, the ability to attract business, the willingness to forgo a social life whenever work requires, and, to a certain extent, dumb luck. Where most people fall down in this area is the willingness to put work above everything else in their lives (which may sound okay when you're 25 and single, but not so great when you're 32 and married with children). Most associates who choose to leave the large firm life do so long before they would be up for partnership. There are a few who stay and then don't make it. They either leave at that time or stay in the hopes they will make partner eventually. Getting back to dress codes, what the others here have said is true. Most major law firms have a business casual dress code. As I pointed out above, such firms generally have a dress policy outlined, which is meant to keep people looking professional, albeit casual.
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by haganah
3) Culture plays a role at many firms and often takes away the worry about people that don't fit in and a lot of people that don't fit in, leave. In the law world, this seems to mesh with the Cravath experience.

For someone not involved at all with 'the law world', you make a lot of ridiculous claims about it. There is a culture within your typical big firm office. But, for an associate, the most relevant culture is associate culture. Your daily survival and psychological well-being often has more to do with how you get along with other associates, and less to do with whether you comport with some senior partner's notion of good breeding.

Lawyerdad is right. You draw upon what little you know about Cravath to make assertions about the legal practice as a whole. I explained to you that Cravath is not typical; even if I didn't, you should be able to recognize the fallacy of your reasoning.
 

RJman

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No comes off looking good in this thread, except lawyerdad. That includes me.











Sigh... sometimes I miss the RJ cat.
 

Eustace Tilley

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I agree with mafoofan. Over the years, I've worked with lawyers from Weil, K&E, Davis Polk, Skadden, Wilson Sonsini etc., and they hardly ever wore suits. I never worked with anyone from Cravath, but the Wachtell guys were always in suits.
 

marc237

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As to lawyerdad - +1 on the most recent post.

I am also a lawyer, but not with a big firm. However, in our work we partner with firms throughout the country all the time. I have noticed that in addition to the prevalence of horrid casual dress, the quality of business dress has declined considerably. The more senior partners with whom I have discussed this have indicated that business casual is not widely favored among the senior partners at many firms and that the firms have noticed the decline.

However, associate turnover is a prime concern and few firms are willing to buck a trend. There is an unfortunate tendency for the mega firms to play follow the leader on employment issues.
 

haganah

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Originally Posted by lawyerdad
Have you been taking debating lessons from dkzzz? Associates leave firms all the time. It's your hypothesis about of the cause of this turnover I took issue with. I "jumped ship" about 18 months into my career. It had nothing to do with dress codes, "firm culture", or "breeding". I'm not sure what point you want to stick to Cravath for. Cravath is, for better (in many ways) or worse (in many ways) sui generis. You made several broad assertions about law firms generally, which several of us with extensive experience in that field have refuted. Saying you can't "imagine" certain facts doesn't change reality. The firm I was referring to is Quinn, Emmanuel. They're a real, and very successful, law firm. Coincidentally, a few years ago some local tv news reporter was doing a puff piece on changing standards of business dress or some such. She interviewed two of my partners (one of whom also owned a high-end men's clothing boutique at the time) to get the more "pro-suit" perspective and someone from Quinn to get the "anti-suit" perspective.
So Quinn has a casual culture and hires anti-suit people but there is no culture and they don't hire Associates they think would fit. And Cravath has a conservative culture and hires Associates they think would fit. But there is no culture, firms don't hire based on fit, and that is that? Again, I never said anything was absolute but that firms do have cultures, often hire on them, and a lot of people that don't like a firm's culture do leave. Clearly I won't be right on this argument no matter what so I'll apologize, say you are correct and bow out to grab lunch.
 

Viktri

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Originally Posted by LabelKing
That part of "guys" not polishing their shoes is disgusting, but then I suppose most of those guys own no shoes that are worth polishing anyways. It would probably be high hope to even presume they own something like Johnston & Murphy.

I also love how they perceive dressing up as a threat to their "intellect." Somehow a lot of people, especially career people, tend to think vanity as something counter to their own "hard-work" and intellectual prowess.


I find it strange those people do not consider dressing well as part of the intellectual ability of the individual that shows attention to details and a desire to fit in.
 

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