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koronya marcell rosenbaum experience

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Politely, Mar 15, 2010.

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  1. archetypal_yuppie

    archetypal_yuppie Senior member

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    Even if rosenbaum is the screw-up, koronya is responsible for making distribution process run correctly. If he wants to stay in business...
     
  2. mlongano

    mlongano Senior member

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    Unless some evidence surfaces indicating that the OP is lying, this thread is reason enough to prevent me from dealing with them.
     
  3. Pezzaturra

    Pezzaturra Senior member

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    And the crowd of I-gents draped in plaid with pupils dilated by fear stampedes back to the comforting safety of the VASH.[​IMG]
     
  4. distinctive

    distinctive Senior member

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    I will agree with Ed and say that this is probably a one-sided story with some reasonable explanation. The fact that the OP demanded a refund because the test shoes were not done in such short time is a bit unreasonable IMO. Art takes time, sometimes longer than predicted. I would imagine that the bespoke process has many kinks and as a buyer, you commit to having a shoe made for you, with a little leniency. It should be a shoe that you are happy with of course and may take some modifications, but to just drop the project that early is both a waste of time and money. That being said, there is no excuse for giving you the run-around, dishonesty is unacceptable.
     
  5. onix

    onix Senior member

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    I will agree with Ed and say that this is probably a one-sided story with some reasonable explanation. The fact that the OP demanded a refund because the test shoes were not done in such short time is a bit unreasonable IMO. Art takes time, sometimes longer than predicted. I would imagine that the bespoke process has many kinks and as a buyer, you commit to having a shoe made for you, with a little leniency. It should be a shoe that you are happy with of course and may take some modifications, but to just drop the project that early is both a waste of time and money. That being said, there is no excuse for giving you the run-around, dishonesty is unacceptable.

    +1
     
  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    The fact that the OP demanded a refund because the test shoes were not done in such short time is a bit unreasonable IMO. Art takes time, sometimes longer than predicted. I would imagine that the bespoke process has many kinks and as a buyer, you commit to having a shoe made for you, with a little leniency. It should be a shoe that you are happy with of course and may take some modifications, but to just drop the project that early is both a waste of time and money. That being said, there is no excuse for giving you the run-around, dishonesty is unacceptable.

    Are you discounting the possibility that he was promised the test shoes and final product within a certain time frame? Whether something is "art" or not doesn't make it acceptable to defy agreed-upon obligations.
     
  7. gdl203

    gdl203 Senior member Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

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    If the test shoes were promised in a month time and the OP requested a refund at the 4-month mark, how is he being "unreasonable"? *



    * see foot note above
     
  8. pabloj

    pabloj Senior member

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    Are you discounting the possibility that he was promised the test shoes and final product within a certain time frame? Whether something is "art" or not doesn't make it acceptable to defy agreed-upon obligations.
    Right, that's what Marcel stated in a post quoted by the OP
     
  9. distinctive

    distinctive Senior member

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    Are you discounting the possibility that he was promised the test shoes and final product within a certain time frame? Whether something is "art" or not doesn't make it acceptable to defy agreed-upon obligations.

    If the test shoes were promised in a month time and the OP requested a refund at the 4-month mark, how is he being "unreasonable"? *


    Perhaps not unreasonable but I would guess that the time was an estimate given to him and some leniency should go unsaid. Bespoke shoes take a long time to complete and a couple of months could be made up in later construction.
     
  10. mlongano

    mlongano Senior member

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    I should divulge that I do not have the patience to wait for nearly one year for a bespoke ANYTHING. If I can get a bespoke suit made in three months why should a pair of shoes take three times as long? LOL...I have had custom homes built in nine months!
     
  11. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Perhaps not unreasonable but I would guess that the time was an estimate given to him and some leniency should go unsaid. Bespoke shoes take a long time to complete and a couple of months could be made up in later construction.
    Well, we don't really know exactly what happened. But if the OP is being accurate, then it was more than just an estimate. Anyway, being wrong on an estimate three or four times over is beyond what a reasonable consumer should tolerate. If you give me a one month estimate, and it takes five weeks, no problem--but if it takes two, three, or four months, I won't be so happy.
     
  12. LynahFaithful

    LynahFaithful Senior member

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    The bespoke process for shoes in most cases will take at least six months and depending upon demand, can take up to a year. Marcell and the other makers have many more customers than one and so if you are serious about buying bespoke shoes, then you must be prepared to wait and then have some flexibility in the time frame.
     
  13. CutandSew

    CutandSew Senior member

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    I wonder if all the courses and apprenticeships being offered are finally taking its toll. Having 7-8 students a month can be disruptive in the workshop. The business of education is definitely more lucrative than the business of making shoes.
     
  14. LynahFaithful

    LynahFaithful Senior member

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    Well, we don't really know exactly what happened. But if the OP is being accurate, then it was more than just an estimate. Anyway, being wrong on an estimate three or four times over is beyond what a reasonable consumer should tolerate. If you give me a one month estimate, and it takes five weeks, no problem--but if it takes two, three, or four months, I won't be so happy.

    There are many reasons that the process can take much more time than estimated as there are other factors involved- lasts have to be remade, suppliers might be delayed, another customer has issues that need to be resolved. My own process with Koronya took longer than expected but I was in communication with Marcell and knew about the delays.

    I'd say that that the real issue here is "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
     
  15. archetypal_yuppie

    archetypal_yuppie Senior member

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    I wonder how many man hours go into a handmade shoe. Ignore leather production, thread production, etc. How many hours does marcel or cliff roberts put in? I'd guess 10, and I think this might be generous.

    Clicking - 30 mins. Sewing uppers - 2 hrs. Footbed/welt - 3 hrs. Soles & heels - 2hrs. (don't count glue-drying time, he can do other soles as that takes place). Insoles - 1hr. Finishing - 1.5 hrs.

    Idunno how long springline takes to make a bespoke last, but that only needs to be done once.

    Any time sitting on the last, etc, is time the artisan can use doing other stuff. Other opinions? I think marcel has a video of the process in general. With his speed I doubt it takes more than 10 hrs/pair. People that have been doing something for a long time can get super speedy. Maybe its 5.

    Edit:------------------

    On to economics. If its 10 hrs, and input costs are 200 leather(?), 100 soles(?), 50 miscellaneous, thats 350 cost, 1500 income, 1150 net, 115/hr marginal income/shoe ex lasts. You could use springline last costs to consumer as a proxy for a makers lasts.
     
  16. LynahFaithful

    LynahFaithful Senior member

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    I wonder how many man hours go into a handmade shoe. Ignore leather production, thread production, etc. How many hours does marcel or cliff roberts put in? I'd guess 10, and I think this might be generous.

    Clicking - 30 mins. Sewing uppers - 2 hrs. Footbed/welt - 3 hrs. Soles & heels - 2hrs. (don't count glue-drying time, he can do other soles as that takes place). Insoles - 1hr. Finishing - 1.5 hrs.

    Idunno how long springline takes to make a bespoke last, but that only needs to be done once.

    Any time sitting on the last, etc, is time the artisan can use doing other stuff. Other opinions? I think marcel has a video of the process in general. With his speed I doubt it takes more than 10 hrs/pair. People that have been doing something for a long time can get super speedy. Maybe its 5.


    I think you had better read the following from Perry Ercolino's website.

    http://www.perryercolino.com/bespoke_shoes.php
     
  17. ajv

    ajv Senior member

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    I wonder how many man hours go into a handmade shoe. Ignore leather production, thread production, etc. How many hours does marcel or cliff roberts put in? I'd guess 10, and I think this might be generous.

    Clicking - 30 mins. Sewing uppers - 2 hrs. Footbed/welt - 3 hrs. Soles & heels - 2hrs. (don't count glue-drying time, he can do other soles as that takes place). Insoles - 1hr. Finishing - 1.5 hrs.

    Idunno how long springline takes to make a bespoke last, but that only needs to be done once.

    Any time sitting on the last, etc, is time the artisan can use doing other stuff. Other opinions? I think marcel has a video of the process in general. With his speed I doubt it takes more than 10 hrs/pair. People that have been doing something for a long time can get super speedy. Maybe its 5.

    Edit:------------------

    On to economics. If its 10 hrs, and input costs are 200 leather(?), 100 soles(?), 50 miscellaneous, thats 350 cost, 1500 income, 1150 net, 115/hr marginal income/shoe ex lasts. You could use springline last costs to consumer as a proxy for a makers lasts.



    I see you know almost nothing about bespoke shoes. If you can make a pair of bespoke shoes in 10 hours you are going to get rich very quickly.

    It normally takes between 40 and 60 hours.

    Adrian
     
  18. archetypal_yuppie

    archetypal_yuppie Senior member

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    ^ I don't think that sheds any new light on the process or timing thereof...

    I was trying to point 2 up
     
  19. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    There are many reasons that the process can take much more time than estimated as there are other factors involved- lasts have to be remade, suppliers might be delayed, another customer has issues that need to be resolved. My own process with Koronya took longer than expected but I was in communication with Marcell and knew about the delays.

    I'd say that that the real issue here is "what we have here is a failure to communicate".


    But it may not just be about communication. If, in fact, the OP was promised a certain schedule, than Koronya/Marcell were obligated to stick to it, or otherwise risk losing the sale.
     
  20. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    I see you know almost nothing about bespoke shoes. If you can make a pair of bespoke shoes in 10 hours you are going to get rich very quickly.

    +1
     
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